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FORUMS Photo Sharing & Visual Enjoyment Astronomy & Celestial 
Thread started 31 Dec 2009 (Thursday) 21:07
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The Official Shoot the Moon Thread

 
WestCoastCannuck
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Oct 20, 2018 05:19 |  #5191

MalVeauX wrote in post #18732695 (external link)
A tracker would open a lot of doors, not just for things like higher resolution lunar imaging, but astrophotography in general.

You could then push that lens you have to the next level (Minolta 400, F4.5). You can get a lot more resolution out of that aperture, that's 88mm aperture, that's practically a 90mm refractor telescope, literally. You can take that lens to F18 with two 2.0x TC's and it will not lose potential resolution. Your camera's pixel pitch is 4.5um. So, around F22 is where it will top out for sampling. Longer than F22 will over-sample (gain nothing). Undersampling (shorter than F22) is ideal here. F18 puts you right in the sweet spot to get as much resolution out your lens as you can for your pixel size on your camera. Again, that Minolta is basically a 90mm refractor. :)

It's just not easy with a handful of still images. If you switch to using your dSLR for video you will get hundreds or a thousand frames much faster, to beat the seeing (imaging no slower than 10ms exposure time to freeze the atmospheric seeing). Imaging at 10ms (1/100s) as your slowest exposure time, push ISO to whatever it takes to fill your histogram and stacking to restore signal to noise and reduce random noise.

Very best,


WOW! Thanks SO much Martin! THIS is the info I have wanted to hear for quite some time - how to get the most out of what I have. :-) I have been wanting to try two 2X TC's... but was unsure whether it would gain me anything.... and I have read about using video - nice to hear I can try it! So... a tracker it is. Won't be any time soon, but it is "next". Have to start thinking about a budget now... then look at the options. If I get itchy.... well.... I don't use my 300/2.8 all that much - I could always sell that. Wait..... you will probably tell me I should be using THAT lens right? Its deadly sharp.... but absolutely horrible CA in spite of being an APO. hehe


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Tareq
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Oct 20, 2018 06:32 |  #5192

All my moon shots are done with 2 scopes, both are cheap with one is a bit expensive but cheaper than many L lenses anyway and it will give much better results for the moon, all using a tracker, i bought the tracker and it changed my astro life, i can't look back now, and even if i use 10x with L lens it won't be any better than a cheap scope with a tracker unless i use the lens with a tracker and a fast video camera, so the lens isn't everything here.


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Post edited 5 months ago by MalVeauX.
     
Oct 20, 2018 09:31 |  #5193

WestCoastCannuck wrote in post #18732701 (external link)
WOW! Thanks SO much Martin! THIS is the info I have wanted to hear for quite some time - how to get the most out of what I have. :-) I have been wanting to try two 2X TC's... but was unsure whether it would gain me anything.... and I have read about using video - nice to hear I can try it! So... a tracker it is. Won't be any time soon, but it is "next". Have to start thinking about a budget now... then look at the options. If I get itchy.... well.... I don't use my 300/2.8 all that much - I could always sell that. Wait..... you will probably tell me I should be using THAT lens right? Its deadly sharp.... but absolutely horrible CA in spite of being an APO. hehe

Heya,

Your 300 F2.8 has a 107mm aperture, just over 4 inches. So it has higher potential resolution than your Minolta by a little bit (88mm versus 107mm, almost an inch of aperture difference, that's a lot of surface area). But, the issue with it is getting it to the appropriate focal-ratio to match your pixel pitch for sampling. Your camera's pixels are unchanged, at 4.5um and being ideal around F22 or lower to keep from oversampling. It would take three 2.0x TC's to get to F17. But, the glass in those three TC's may introduce a lot of problems. Might be worth experimenting with. Ultimately though, the cost of that many quality TC's costs more than a basic small refractor that already has the focal-ratio needed for ideal sampling, so personally I wouldn't bother buying several TC's and would much rather spend even less money on a basic refractor (even a small one) and just use a barlow to get the scale you need, since a basic refractor like that will be less than $200, easily. And you can still use your SLR. But really, just use the Minolta. It gets to the right focal-ratio with two TC's which is a lot more manageable. A tracker would give you a lot of options. Plus, it opens the door to planets too. And double stars. Etc.

A tracker, your Minolta, and a little USB CMOS camera will actually work great on the lunar surface. You'll wonder why people use their SLR's for the moon. :)

Very best,


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Oct 20, 2018 10:58 |  #5194

MalVeauX wrote in post #18732695 (external link)
A tracker would open a lot of doors, not just for things like higher resolution lunar imaging, but astrophotography in general.

You could then push that lens you have to the next level (Minolta 400, F4.5). You can get a lot more resolution out of that aperture, that's 88mm aperture, that's practically a 90mm refractor telescope, literally. You can take that lens to F18 with two 2.0x TC's and it will not lose potential resolution. Your camera's pixel pitch is 4.5um. So, around F22 is where it will top out for sampling. Longer than F22 will over-sample (gain nothing). Undersampling (shorter than F22) is ideal here. F18 puts you right in the sweet spot to get as much resolution out your lens as you can for your pixel size on your camera. Again, that Minolta is basically a 90mm refractor. :)

It's just not easy with a handful of still images. If you switch to using your dSLR for video you will get hundreds or a thousand frames much faster, to beat the seeing (imaging no slower than 10ms exposure time to freeze the atmospheric seeing). Imaging at 10ms (1/100s) as your slowest exposure time, push ISO to whatever it takes to fill your histogram and stacking to restore signal to noise and reduce random noise.

Very best,


Wow! You just lost me in the calculations. lol! I am shooting a Canon 7D Mark II and I looked up a pixel pitch of 4.08um. I am using the Canon 100-400 II (f4.5-5.6). How do I determine where it will top out for sampling? Where would the sweet spot be. I have been using it with the Canon 1.4X and 2x stacked. Also, which tracker would you recommend? Thank you, JC


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WestCoastCannuck
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Post edited 5 months ago by WestCoastCannuck.
     
Oct 20, 2018 12:43 |  #5195

MalVeauX wrote in post #18732783 (external link)
Heya,

Your 300 F2.8 has a 107mm aperture, just over 4 inches. So it has higher potential resolution than your Minolta by a little bit (88mm versus 107mm, almost an inch of aperture difference, that's a lot of surface area). But, the issue with it is getting it to the appropriate focal-ratio to match your pixel pitch for sampling. Your camera's pixels are unchanged, at 4.5um and being ideal around F22 or lower to keep from oversampling. It would take three 2.0x TC's to get to F17. But, the glass in those three TC's may introduce a lot of problems. Might be worth experimenting with. Ultimately though, the cost of that many quality TC's costs more than a basic small refractor that already has the focal-ratio needed for ideal sampling, so personally I wouldn't bother buying several TC's and would much rather spend even less money on a basic refractor (even a small one) and just use a barlow to get the scale you need, since a basic refractor like that will be less than $200, easily. And you can still use your SLR. But really, just use the Minolta. It gets to the right focal-ratio with two TC's which is a lot more manageable. A tracker would give you a lot of options. Plus, it opens the door to planets too. And double stars. Etc.

A tracker, your Minolta, and a little USB CMOS camera will actually work great on the lunar surface. You'll wonder why people use their SLR's for the moon. :)

Very best,

Thanks Martin. I really appreciate the well considered and knowledgeable advice! First ... a tracker and another 2X. :-)

The intarweb says my A77ii has a pixel pitch of 3.88 µm.

Very best regards

Mike


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Oct 20, 2018 13:44 |  #5196

MalVeauX wrote in post #18732783 (external link)
Heya,

A tracker, your Minolta, and a little USB CMOS camera will actually work great on the lunar surface. You'll wonder why people use their SLR's for the moon. :)

Very best,

Hi Martin,

I know very little about USB CMOS.... well actually I know nothing about them. How do you use a Minolta (or I assume any DSLR) camera with a USB CMOS camera?


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Oct 20, 2018 13:50 |  #5197

October 19, 2018


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Oct 20, 2018 14:19 |  #5198

3jc wrote in post #18732829 (external link)
Wow! You just lost me in the calculations. lol! I am shooting a Canon 7D Mark II and I looked up a pixel pitch of 4.08um. I am using the Canon 100-400 II (f4.5-5.6). How do I determine where it will top out for sampling? Where would the sweet spot be. I have been using it with the Canon 1.4X and 2x stacked. Also, which tracker would you recommend? Thank you, JC

So, sampling is based on focal-ratio to pixel pitch. In a perfect system, having a focal-ratio that is around 5 times the pixel pitch will get you in the ball park of optimal. There are variables, but this is the simple dirty way to consider things. So if your 7D2 has 4.08um pixel pitch size, around F20 would ideal sampling. Anything over that will become oversampled and you're not gaining detail for the increase in scale (higher magnification), no different than imaging at less scale and simply resizing it in post. Undersampling is less than that, and is fine to do, to a point, it's ideal to undersample when the seeing is very poor. All of this has to do with managing the level of blur. Oversampling is more blur. Undersampling is less blur, but at the cost of losing potential information which results in less details potentially. So imaging near the optimal sampling range is how we do high resolution imaging (note, resolution does not refer to the megapixel count on a sensor, it's referring to the scale and potential resolution of the aperture of the instrument at it's ideal matched sampling).

WestCoastCannuck wrote in post #18732879 (external link)
Thanks Martin. I really appreciate the well considered and knowledgeable advice! First ... a tracker and another 2X. :-)

The intarweb says my A77ii has a pixel pitch of 3.88 µm.

Very best regards

Mike

Sorry Mike, I thought you had the A99II so I looked up that sensor. The 3.88um is closer to F20 ideally, and the two TC's putting you at F18 is still very close and basically optimal for maximizing the potential resolution you can image at with the 88mm aperture.

Inspeqtor wrote in post #18732925 (external link)
Hi Martin,

I know very little about USB CMOS.... well actually I know nothing about them. How do you use a Minolta (or I assume any DSLR) camera with a USB CMOS camera?

Simple adapters. Most of these cameras use a standard T2 and then adapt that to whatever camera system. Just as an example, here's an adapter to take a T2 connection USB CMOS camera to a Canon EF mount so you can use it with camera lenses (which is commonly done in astrophotography): https://astronomy-imaging-camera.com/product/new​-eos-t2-adapter (external link)

Very best,


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WestCoastCannuck
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Oct 20, 2018 14:39 as a reply to  @ MalVeauX's post |  #5199

Hi Martin! Thanks again. I use my A99ii for almost everything.... and my A77ii pretty much just for the moon. I find it gives better images.

Cheers!

Mike


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Oct 20, 2018 16:41 |  #5200

18 October 2018

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Oct 20, 2018 17:12 |  #5201

Same above but in B&W

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Oct 20, 2018 21:15 |  #5202

Moon from last night with first attempt using Registax6. (Trying to get some practice in before the Lunar eclipse in January.) I wasn't really planning on trying stacking when I was taking the pictures but after getting slightly depressed seeing all the great shots in this thread :lol:, I thought I'd give it a try. So this stack is only 7 frames (and I had a heck of a time getting Registax to work with only that - kept freezing during the Align step). I ended up using PPIP to center and crop the images and then it worked. If anyone has any tips on that, I'd love to hear them. (For instances, how many frames should you normally try to get for stacking?)

Shot at 400mm on an 80D with the 100-400 v1, so it's heavily cropped. Also toned it a little in LR.


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Oct 20, 2018 21:47 |  #5203

From Tonight.


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Oct 20, 2018 22:22 |  #5204

Early morning moon.


P.


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Some stuff.

  
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Oct 21, 2018 03:42 |  #5205

Tonight's Moon, Stack of 100 frames

IMAGE: https://photos.smugmug.com/photos/i-H4h8GxD/0/b2c821cb/O/i-H4h8GxD.jpg

And the best piece, at 100%
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The Official Shoot the Moon Thread
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