20D and 580EX - underexposures are the rule

Try taking the picture again but this time, try not to get the flash light bouncing off the glass of the china cabinet. I'm sure if you took the same shot with your SD10, it would come out even darker. Of course, you can prove me wrong by posting a sample of a shot from the SD10 (of the same china cabinet and flowers) here, too.

There is nothing wrong with your gear. Get camera out of P

Well, good advice so far. Here's more to ponder. When I remember to do this, keeping camera in M (80% of time for flash) or Av (20%), flash exposures with Canon E-TTL II are best in my life. Don't shoot P with Canon flash photography. Old photojournalist taught me:

"Use shutter speed and/or ISO to properly expose the background and use f/stop and flash to expose the foreground."

First, get your camera out of P, where you are in control of nothing. Second, take that same scene and get a single focus point over foreground flowers. Then progressively modify shutter speed. Then progressively modify ISO. What you will find is that flash output stays the same(!) on foreground flower subject, as it should, while background at higher ISO or slower shutter will hit a setting where it is properly exposed. After a while, you get to geshtalt a scene with camera in M before the shot.
There is a famous series of tests to prove this works. I think they were called the Teddy Bear Tests at Nikon's site.

I do this all the time at work, taking pictures of people (foreground) giving public presentations with a LCD PowerPoint projector (background). I meter and hold flash off camera.

Lastly, P or Av will give different background exposure depending on how much ambient light a Canon camera meters before the shot. High moderate ambient light (above about 10EV) results in auto fill-flash reduction. Canon's engineers DESIGNED their flash system to reduce background exposure, because I suppose they feel many people like that look.
Another reason to put camera in M when doing flash.

Canon does not document it's flash features well, thus there is a big learning curve. Read Scott Bergers "sticky" at the top of this flash forum. Read Photonotes.org. and read Frary's web site on canon auto fill flash.

Hope that helps. J.

I am also very frustrated/confused with my 580EX and my 20D together. Its either over or under exposed every time either on Av P. I was mistaken to think that just marring the two would produce as good as pics as my older P&S S50, no way. My S-50 made perfects shot everytime..this new combo is brutal. Every shot needs to be FEC'd in some way. I unerstand that each pic is really two exposures when using flash (the abminent background and the flashed forground.) Adjusting our exposures and FEC to change each, but I thought this 20D combo would do a much better job.

Oh well.

this article was a GREAT help understand flash exposure. Amust read for the beginner. Pics included!

Here is a link I ran across that explains the use of fill-flash really well........easily understood and gives example pics which are worth a 1000 words!!

http://www.popphoto.co​m/assets/down...212003​11318.pdf

oh yeah.......it's in PDF format so you need the Adobe reader installed on your computer.......

OK - here are the two shots. The darker one is the $ 2500 D20 580 EX and the lighter one is the $ 300 SD10.

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Interesting. The shot from the baby camera is more even, but I think the shot from the real camera is better exposed. You might like to rotate pictures before you post them, it's annoying to look at them like that.

Have you tried my suggestion of using bounce flash with the catchlight up?

Which are you trying to expose correctly, the flowers or the fireplace? With direct flash at that distance, you're not going to get both. The SD10 overexposed the flowers - the white petals are completely blown. The 20D underexposed the fireplace.

Confalone.
You're posting again. Did you read my post on previous page? You do not understand the SLR E-TTL II flash system and the relationship between shutter speed/ISO for background and f stop/flash exposure for foreground. There's nothing wrong with your camera; it's not a point and shoot.
J

If you were to ask me, I'd say that the 20D is exposing the picture just right and teh SD10 is over exposing the picture. I much prefer the 20D shot, but that's me. Maybe that's the reason I've never had any complaints about any of my flash pictures. I think they're spot one, personally.

Now, tell me, truthfully, is your living room (or whereever that shot was taken) really that bright as depicted by the SD10 shot? (If it were, then you wouldn't really have had the need to use the flash, I don't think. )

OK - I want to thank all of you for your helpful comments. I am concluding that my 20D is operating as Canon intended. I would have liked an idiot-proof point and shoot option [green rectangle] that gave acceptable flash pix. I now know that getting the correct exposures with flash is very difficult. The suggestions and links you have posted are a great help. THere are a lot of us out there that have found the 20D 580EX disappointing in this regard. I hope that I can learn to use the camera in P, M Av etc mode and get spot on exposures. All of my shots have been greatly improved by image processing in PS. I just didn't want to have to do this to all my picture, especially when I've taken a lot. The green rectangle should do better for routine, view once pictures. I'm not sending the camera back to Canon for evaluation. I have much to learn. I hope others will find this thread valuable. Pat Confalone

Pat, I really think you should go back and read this entire thread again, and take note of the suggestions people made, and their explainations of why it's working as it is. Also, the link from the sticky thread that I linked to is also invaluable. By your last post it just doesn't sound to me like you've learned anything from this thread, which is a shame, because there's lots of good info here.

Try the same shot, but utilize AV mode.

Utilizing Auto or P (without FEC), will, to the most part, only care about the foreground. The background will not be exposed to the appropriate shutter speed required. Particularly when utilizing P, if the background is dark, the shutter duration is probably at the minimum (1/60) for P mode. By evaluating the histogram, you'll know to switch over to Av to take the same shot.

Utilizing Av, the background will be correctly metered and your shutter speed will adjust accordingly. You may realize that you will need a tripod to keep the camera shake to a minimum *due to a slow shutter speed).

It's an easy test. Try the shot again in P and then Av and note the shutter speed difference when you utilize the same apeture in Av as the camera set in P. Also note if there is any change in the picture, you should see a difference - particularly in the background. You shouldn't see a difference with the foreground (flowers).

Now, if your subject isn't as willing (or static) as the flowers (like kids), you will probably want to use Tv instead of Av in order to inhibit subject (foreground) blur. Same game applies (except a mistake in P with moving subject can lose the "moment").

wow - the same shot is Av had a 4 sec shutter. Thanks to IS it wasn't too bad hand held. THe exposure was bright and not overdone, but I would have to use a tripod on this shot.

I usually shoot iso 200 125/sec. f5.6,f8.0 (manual mode!!!!) +2FEC try that as a "baseline" and tweak from there

Good point, indoor shoots can (some people would use the word should) be set at iso400.