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Thread started 01 Feb 2010 (Monday) 06:58
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ceriltheblade
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Feb 01, 2010 06:58 |  #1

hi there. i am not sure if this is the right place in the forum to speak about this, but here goes:

This past weekend I went to some fields of wild flowers and took pictures of red poppies....the problem came about in that when i got home and looked at the files, all the reds were just plain old blobs of red with no detail at all. Someone once told me that reds are problematic...but I wanted to get practical solutions how to approach my next poppy.

it was overcast but ample (flat) light
i was in Av mode
AWB
auto ISO
(and the rest I don't remember because I am at work)

Any ideas about what I did wrong....

yes, I am a newbie

thanks


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Mike
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Feb 01, 2010 10:20 |  #2

Post a picture of the shot with the exif attached to help us understand your problem.

Red colours do often suffer though so you are not alone with this problem. It has to do with the colour gamut and profile that you are shooting with. As the poppies have a very deep red camera sensors often struggle as these tones are outside of the colour space that the camera can handle.

I have exhausted my pitiful techno knowledge with this rubbish explanation but have a look at this website: http://www.cambridgein​colour.com/tutorials.h​tm (external link) and take a look at the Colour Management section for a proper explanation on how your camera perceives colour.

:D


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stsva
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Feb 01, 2010 10:26 |  #3

You might find these discussions helpful:
http://photo.net …gital-camera-forum/00HMWR (external link)
http://photo.net …gital-camera-forum/00ScZP (external link)

The bottom line seems to be to shoot RAW and check your red channel exposure on the histogram to make sure it's enough to the left of clipping to preserve details in the reds.


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Feb 01, 2010 10:33 |  #4

it was overcast but ample (flat) light Good for this problem.

i was in Av mode Exposure is critical with reds & yellows. Use "M". Here's why: Post #47
Click the "post #47" at the top-right of that post if you'd like more info on the subject.

AWB Custom WB, or at least the Cloudy pre-set. Some people swear that AWB is OK outdoors, but I ran a test indoors & have never used it since. Notice that the very last exposure in the 2nd image of tests was of a gray card, & it's way off.
https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=54281

auto ISO No. Set a whole number, like 100, 200... Partial numbers like 150 involve processing in the camera which is not usually a good thing.

Shoot RAW. It's like a free upgrade for your camera. There's a great illustration on page 2 (Post #58.) of this thread that illustrates easily seen information loss in a web jpeg shot in the camera & one derived from a RAW file. I was surprised!

That will give you something to think about, but as Mike said, "Post a picture of the shot with the exif attached".


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tzalman
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Feb 01, 2010 11:13 |  #5

Mike wrote in post #9517346 (external link)
Red colours do often suffer though so you are not alone with this problem. It has to do with the colour gamut and profile that you are shooting with. As the poppies have a very deep red camera sensors often struggle as these tones are outside of the colour space that the camera can handle.

That is partially right (which also means, unfortunately, that it is partially wrong). Actually, the capture space of modern camera sensors is huge, bigger than human vision. The problem comes further down the pipeline when a jpg is created and shoe-horned into a smaller space - either the medium gamut AdobeRGB or the narrower gamut of sRGB. It is then that the extreme reds get crushed and clipped.

And the effect is compounded and made worse by another process that takes place during jpg creation - white balance in applied. WB is done by multiplying all the values of the red and blue channels in order to bring them into balance with the green. And in daylight, because it is bluish and naturally deficient in red, that multiplying is done mostly to the red values which are roughly doubled. That means that that any red value that was naturally greater than half-way up the brightness scale in the original capture gets pushed over the top. In other words, clipped.

What can you do about it? Shoot RAW, which allows you to control the formation of the jpg instead of letting the camera try to handle a special situation (like a red flower) that requires custom-fitted methods with an off-the-peg solution


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Mike
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Feb 01, 2010 11:16 |  #6

tzalman wrote in post #9517711 (external link)
That is partially right (which also means, unfortunately, that it is partially wrong).

I'm not surprised. :oops:;):D


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ceriltheblade
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Feb 01, 2010 11:22 |  #7

wow. thanks very much for the links and the information. I tried google searches as well in in POTN but for some reason couldn't find too much. Maybe I am using the wrong key words. When I get home and have a chance at the computer (between wife and kids - it isn't often) I will upload a picture. It's a big red blob unfortunately.

photosguy: thanks for the blow by blow on the details that I gave. I will have to take some time to read those posts since they are long and I will have to think about the points you made (many of them!) I shoot JPEG and RAW together in almost all of my pictures now. I am not too polished in regards to post processing, but practice makes perfect i suppose.


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ceriltheblade
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Feb 01, 2010 11:26 |  #8

tzalman - it is true that when I reviewed the pictures on the computer (I had many, so a quick view) was done vis a vis the jpeg of the pair (as above, I shoot JPEG and RAW together as a pair) so it could be that looking at the RAW poppy in DPP may have different qualities. I will check. Equally one of the links given here speaks about landscape being the most problematic type of preset - and I am not sure which preset (if at all) I was using. I will have to check that too.

Thanks and todah.


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tzalman
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Feb 01, 2010 11:52 |  #9

Yes, in DPP with Neutral P.S. and pulling down the Brightness (Exposure) and Highlight sliders may bring back some detail. If that makes the midtones too dark, go over to the RGB tab and adjust them with the curve editor.


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Feb 01, 2010 11:54 |  #10

Have picture style as neutral (it will give you a better histogram depiction).
use your histogram in RGB mode and watch out for clipping red.
Learn to use DPP, it's quick and easy for simple adjustments like white balance, among other things.


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Feb 01, 2010 12:00 |  #11

In the above, neutral style in camera, as the in camera histogram will better depict the RAW data captured.


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ceriltheblade
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Feb 02, 2010 10:13 as a reply to  @ windpig's post |  #12

hi there and sorry for the delay:
i am not sure that I saved the decreased size with the EXIF, so I include:
f8, 1/100, ap priority, no flash 75mm iso 500 metering pattern
i looked at the raw and when i played with the sliders (i am confused how o use them) i could get some sort of detail back (though the color isn't so impressive when I do so)
and i noticed that I used landscape - so that will be changing immediately
on the histogram i noticed the red channel had two peaks - one in the middle and not so wide...and the second at the end of the spectrum - which I will make an educated guess means that i "clipped" the reds.. if that is the right terminology.
besides what was already mentioned - RAW vs JPEG, auto WB vs custom or daylight, landscape vs faithful or neutral pattern...how practically could I have made this a better technical picture as well captured what I wanted/
Please excuse the framing. I admit that I was not thinking about the composition of the photo
thanks for advice


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windpig
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Feb 02, 2010 11:55 |  #13

A couple of things.
the lighting is too flat to create enough contrast between the back petals.
to get more in focus you may need to try stopping down 1 or 2 stops.
go to DDP in the RAW tab and try upping your contrast, move the slider to the right, that may eliminate the washed out look.
some flowers are just darn hard to get captured. get a flash and use it off camera to get more control. it will help you to be able to shoot at f11, f16 etc, using shutter speed fast enough at these smaller apertures. It also gets your lighting off axis so that you get the shadows that add depth and 3 dimensionality


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ceriltheblade
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Feb 02, 2010 13:16 |  #14

thanks for the tips!

so you suggest in regards to the actual shooting parameters to go to f11 - ish for the DOF, but to use DPP for the contrast?

unfortunately, currently I do not have a flash unit at all, so that suggestion will have to wait...but I will keep it in mind for when I do get one.

thanks for the suggestion. I think that the subject of sliders is yet another one of those on my list of "read about and learn" which I haven't gotten to yet. Thanks again


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windpig
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Feb 02, 2010 21:42 |  #15

Without the RAW file, I could only rudimentally adjust the JPG. But this gives you kind of an idea of what can be done.


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