Fast flash duration?

Hello all. I have searched for this information and have found some of what I was looking for, so I thought I would post to see if anyone had the rest of the pieces...

I am looking to add some light to indoor sports shooting (indoor rodeo, basketball, etc.). I had pretty much decided on getting 2x400 Ws Genesis kits until I started seeing them pegged as having long flash duration that might not be suitable for stopping action. Going with 2xAB800's seems to be popular, but I am leery of dropping that much cash. (I was planning on even trying to pick up the Genesis kits on the next sale to save a few dollars.) So, the question is... Does anyone have t.5 data on the Genesis or effective motion "stopping" power data (hard numbers, effective shutter speed numbers, or just about anything that is helpful would be great)? Are the AB800's the most cost effective way to add fast light?

I was even considering buying 5 YN-460 II's. If they were around a GN of 80 (just a guess on my part based on some of Kurbster's #'s), then that would be the equivalent of about 400 Ws (if I am doing my math correctly). I know speedlights are generally pretty fast, but I haven't seen hard numbers on YN-460 II flash durations either (so I am speculating some more).

I am just trying to add as much light with sufficient speed to stop a bucking bronco as I can on a shoestring budget. Are the alienbees really my only/best choice? Thanks.

Just as an FYI, t.5 flash duration is not what you really need to know to determine whether it's suitable for freezing sports shots although you can derive the effective flash duration you need to know from it. What you need is the t.1 flash duration (or divide the t.5 duration by 3 to give you a more realistic flash duration) to determine if the flash will be fast enough for your sports needs.

As a general rule of thumb, the shorter the flash duration, the more expensive the strobe will be so you may not be able to find a strobe with the flash duration you want without spending more than you'd like.

Thanks for the input.

I did know about the t.1 vs t.5, but it seems that the t.5 number is more commonly given (which is why I asked for it, but also added a plea for other values that I could extrapolate from). As for the cost, I didn't want to discount the cheaper strobes without asking the question (making assumptions and all that...:oops. The AB800's are not completely outside of my price range (they're usually not much cheaper used), but it will take much more soul searching to justify their cost compared to the Genesis strobes (on sale) along with more time saving up the cash once I decide which direction I intend to go. I didn't know if older strobes might be a better budget alternative (White Lightnings perhaps?), but I don't know enough about these older strobe options to make an informed decision.

I am just a hobbyist at sports shooting, portraits, etc. where I would use these. I have a hard time dropping big $$$ (at least for me) when I am not generating a return with them. I would love to rent, but I live over an hour drive away from any place that might have them available which makes buying a lot more attractive (to a point). Plus, renting a couple of these a few times for a week from a place like lensrentals.com would cost me enough to get them here and back that I would come out ahead by just buying them instead. Thanks again for the continued feedback...

lazer-jock wrote in post #9706807
I am looking to add some light to indoor sports shooting (indoor rodeo, basketball, etc.).

Before you drop your cash, borrow a light meter, and measure some readings in venues where you will photograph, under ISO you will use.
Why? Yes, as PacAce notes, it is t.1 tail of flash you care about; but to stop motion you also need to be above ambient by a reasonable power. Depending on ambient, and on the distance between flash units and subjects (not you and subjects) that could demand a lot of light. Or a little light. Then you'll better estimate your power requirements and best path to get you there.

Have you checked out - http://www.paulcbuff.c​om/einstein/preorder.h​tml

They've been in 'pre-order' for a while.

J Rabin wrote in post #9710180
Before you drop your cash, borrow a light meter, and measure some readings in venues where you will photograph, under ISO you will use.
Why? Yes, as PacAce notes, it is t.1 tail of flash you care about; but to stop motion you also need to be above ambient by a reasonable power. Depending on ambient, and on the distance between flash units and subjects (not you and subjects) that could demand a lot of light. Or a little light. Then you'll better estimate your power requirements and best path to get you there.

I don't have a light meter, but I can tell you that to get proper exposure in the indoor rodeo under ambient alone, I'm usually around 1/60 to 1/160 (uneven lighting) at f/2 and ISO 800 (looking at the EXIF of shots taken while playing with settings before things got started). The basketball gym is a couple stops better than the rodeo arena. Now, I have to push to 1/400 or faster to just start to stop motion. I have supplemented with my 580EX II, ISO 1600, and pushing in post to try to get the exposure I needed at these shutter speeds with basically unsatisfactory results.

So, I am now looking for additional photons. If I am on the same wavelength as you, then I would need to be about 3 stops above ambient to stop the motion that I am dealing with in the rodeo and only about a stop higher (if I stay at the same settings above) in the gym. Would 2x AB800 be enough light to bounce and be effective? Would I have some headroom to drop to a smaller aperture, lower ISO, etc. for a little better IQ? I am soaking up all the information I can get and I appreciate all the comments so far...

Titus213 wrote in post #9710414
Have you checked out - http://www.paulcbuff.c​om/einstein/preorder.h​tml

They've been in 'pre-order' for a while.

I've seen the Einsteins, and they are supposed to have a wicked fast flash duration. However, I think that their speed might actually be a little overkill for me. Also, they are only available in 640 Ws which would limit me to just one on my budget. I am really looking at a 2 light kit so that I can do some portraiture with them as well.

lazer-jock. That does not sound like "bad" "poor" light at all. A pair of Paul C. Buff lights ought to work out just fine. I am surprised it is so bright in a rodeo arena. The animals and dark items will absorb light more than a shiny basketball uniform.
They should have sufficient output if you purchase them with the higher output arena reflectors.
How will you trigger them? PW or the sync system PCB sells? Need to have other users not trigger them. Have these arenas agreed to provide you a press pass to hook them up before events? Let you use flash?
At max output, the PCB lights have among the shortest duration in their price class. I don't use them, (pack and head user with shorter duration), but there is plenty to admire in their efficiency, weight, price, reliability, and service. Most of the competitor price point lights have longer duration.
Get the long throw reflectors and you'll can really "project" the bounce power of the light pretty far, with a defined spread. Jack

J Rabin wrote in post #9717150
lazer-jock. That does not sound like "bad" "poor" light at all. A pair of Paul C. Buff lights ought to work out just fine. I am surprised it is so bright in a rodeo arena. The animals and dark items will absorb light more than a shiny basketball uniform.
They should have sufficient output if you purchase them with the higher output arena reflectors.
How will you trigger them? PW or the sync system PCB sells? Need to have other users not trigger them. Have these arenas agreed to provide you a press pass to hook them up before events? Let you use flash?
At max output, the PCB lights have among the shortest duration in their price class. I don't use them, (pack and head user with shorter duration), but there is plenty to admire in their efficiency, weight, price, reliability, and service. Most of the competitor price point lights have longer duration.
Get the long throw reflectors and you'll can really "project" the bounce power of the light pretty far, with a defined spread. Jack

Those numbers are for the exposures on actual people (taken before the action at ambient), and indoor rodeo isn't exactly drab in colors (at least not around here). I didn't try ambient only with actual horses/bulls/etc., and you're 100% right that the dirt is a sponge for photons. However, the pro shots that I've seen around here usually don't try to expose the ground properly either. So, I just chalked it up to wanting a proper exposure on the contestants alone (and if the rest are close, so much the better). All of my action shots were variations on flash themes (I have a 580EX II and a Sigma EF-500 DG Super that can be an manual or E-TTL slave to the 580EX II). The rodeo is on my campus only twice a year, so I get what practice I can when I can get it (hence not playing around with ambient shooting too much and not at all once things really started). One thing that does help in the rodeo arena is that it is basically a huge metal shed with highly reflective walls and ceiling.

As far as permission, I have talked with the head coach who is on the faculty with me, and he seemed pretty excited to have me shoot with strobes after explaining what I planned to do with them. I have given him CD's of my attempts in the past for his own use. I just plan to shoot at my own school with the strobes (and not at other venues). In fact, I don't tend to travel to off-campus venues for shooting opportunities in general (but shoot basketball, plays, etc. when they are on campus). For triggers, I was considering the RF-602's, but now that I'm looking at the AB's, it might seem that cybersync's would be the more logical choice to give me an upgrade path in the Buff line (CyberCommander, etc.).

For reflectors, I have seen several people (generally strobing gymnasiums) that lean towards 11" vs. 7". Any thoughts on this based on your own experience? I have only used speedlights up to this point, so the studio strobes will be a whole new ball game...

Also, I should say that I know others have much worse situations to deal with for low-light event shooting, but being 3-4 stops shy of where I would like to shoot what I would want is still pretty frustrating. Ideally, I would like ISO 200/400 at 1/500-1/640+ and at f/2.8 or slower for a little more DOF forgiveness with the Rebel's AI-Servo tracking, but I know that would likely break my proverbial bank so I try to keep my expectation in check.

lazer-jock wrote in post #9717789
Also, I should say that I know others have much worse situations to deal with for low-light event shooting, but being 3-4 stops shy of where I would like to shoot what I would want is still pretty frustrating. Ideally, I would like ISO 200/400 at 1/500-1/640+ and at f/2.8 or slower for a little more DOF forgiveness with the Rebel's AI-Servo tracking, but I know that would likely break my proverbial bank so I try to keep my expectation in check.

I think you are a little low on your ideal iso, you should be able to use ISO 800 pretty easily if your exposure is on. And I'm assuming these goals are non flash targets as you cant sync the strobes at the speeds you list.

gonzogolf wrote in post #9719440
I think you are a little low on your ideal iso, you should be able to use ISO 800 pretty easily if your exposure is on. And I'm assuming these goals are non flash targets as you cant sync the strobes at the speeds you list.

I'm a little leery of ISO 800, but you're right that my exposure was not good at my previous attempts at it. I've been shooting 800/1600 trying to cut contributions from ambient, shooting my 100/2 at 2-2.2 to keep my apertures wide, and then using the stopping speed of the flash(es) to try to freeze motion as best as I can. I've played with HSS and just the naturally short duration of the speedlight flash with noticeable improvement, but I'm still ending up with significant ghosting of motion due to the proportionally high contribution of ambient at 1/200th sync. HSS takes care of that by allowing faster shutter speeds, but it also costs me significantly on the power side of things. My experience with HSS suggests that I would probably need 1/640 or faster on my flash duration to stop motion the way I want. I am happy to shoot strobes 3 (or more?) stops over ambient that have a flash duration of this approximate speed. The sync speed shouldn't let enough ambient in at that setting (from what I understand of how this works) to bother me.

Now, I am fully aware that I don't know anything about AC powered strobes that I didn't read online, and I want everyone to know how much I appreciate being able to "pick your brains" for personal experience.

HSS is the wrong approach in that while you are upping the shutter speed you are losing the stopping power of the strobe because your strobe effectively turns into a continuous light source (little pulses). Short duration flashes at a lower shutter speed not sure what max sync is on your body but 1/200 plus short duration flash will do a better job. If you want to cut the contribution of ambient you need lower iso's. To prevent ghosting you need to aim for the flash to be about 3 stops brighter than ambient. Look for threads posted by mtstringer a user here who does what you want, using alien bees.

Yeah, I should have added "unsuccessfully" when I was talking about the HSS. It seems like I lost about a stop (or maybe two?) of power in the HSS mode, but it is hard to judge with my uncalibrated eye since it was also adjusting the ambient down as well (as the shutter speed increased). It did tell me about what flash duration I needed, but "keepers" were less likely. To answer a few of your other questions, my max sync is 1/200 (XSi/450D body). My lowest ISO is 1600. I believe that I could try for EC to approximate 3200, but I am not terribly happy with my previous attempts at 1600 (again, I wasn't getting proper exposure, so I need to let go of that prejudice if I can get more light). I also tend to think that real ISO settings work better than EC'ing down lower than the body was designed to shoot (definitely not HAMSTTR), but again...I've discovered the hidden knowledge of exposing to the right since the last rodeo happened. I am looking forward to trying out many new tricks in the next rodeo on campus.

That would be your highest ISO just to be accurate. And you are going the wrong way. If you are going to use flash you need to keep your iso lower around 400 or perhaps 800 so that you can overpower the ambient and kill ghosting.