There is nothing wrong with saying "You Aren't ready!"

Snydremark wrote in post #9949801
If experienced shooters aren't willing to do that, then how does a new shooter learn the specifics necessary to be "ready" to shoot a wedding? Recommendations on other styles of shooting that they could do to lead up to doing weddings? Places they could go to hook up with experienced photographers? Things like that.

The same way other professions do it. Go to school. There are many workshops available now and not that expensive either.

Eric has a vary valid point though. The opportunities to learn in field while still being supervised seems to have disappeared or at least greatly diminished. Maybe it's time to open a wedding shooter school where mock weddings are held daily allowing photographers to shoot weddings where the prime focus is learning and not results.

Exactly what I'm getting at. Just because you've completed school in a given subject doesn't mean that you're going to be prepared for dealing with things when they go egg-shaped on you.

In most any field, there's very little as valuable as being able to shadow and/or be supervised and guided by someone else that has actually done the work before.

Snydremark wrote in post #9950029
Exactly what I'm getting at. Just because you've completed school in a given subject doesn't mean that you're going to be prepared for dealing with things when they go egg-shaped on you.

In most any field, there's very little as valuable as being able to shadow and/or be supervised and guided by someone else that has actually done the work before.

Well I guess doctors should just dismiss with the schooling then... What is your point?

Well, I understand that not everyone goes to school. I am self taught.

I read every book I could get my hands on, on posing, lighting, composure, exposure etc...went to seminars whenever they were available, joined photography groups (real life...it's important to have "hands on" experience & real life feedback, teaching & support), spent time on "strobist" (even though I didn't end up going that way with lighting, it was a great resource). Searched all over the web for the styles of photography I liked then found out how to do them. Attended web seminars. Practiced on anyone and everyone who would let me. Posted photos here. Asked questions here. And I never expected people to tell me I was wonderful. I listened to criticism.

I learned photoshop (it's too important in this day and age, to not know how to do) the same way. There could be a whole different thread on being professional with photoshop and mangling a photo with it but I won't go there.

After (<----this being key) I was very comfortable with photography as a whole (see everything I mentioned above) etc...I tried to get an "internship/2nd shooter gig" around here but no one was taking on assistants. So I started with advertising myself and doing portraits & the $500 wedding thing. I made sure my contract stated I was a novice to WEDDINGS and that they clearly knew they weren't promised anything. I did a couple of weddings that way and then my business grew and so did my price market...I also went to every public event I could find and photographed everything. I practiced technique there (because weddings are so often like photojournalism that public events are a great venue for practicing). If you miss a shot, it's gone...events are fast moving etc...just like weddings. Then I would go home and process the shots, just like if I had to do a wedding.

So it is possible to start from scratch and work your way up. But instead of going to classes and people handing you things to learn, you have to dig. It doesn't excuse not learning...it means you have to work harder to find out what you are supposed to learn...and learn it.

Most importantly, you have to be "teachable". Meaning if your peers are saying (and I'm not talking about trolls...just peers...it's pretty easy to weed out the difference in a forum like this) "this is a major weakness in your photography right now...work on it" then you have to be willing to say "okay" and do it. Because in lieu of paid teachers...you've got mentors. That's what I see is missing here. When people are willing to say "this is not up to snuff" then offended pride rears it's head and ready or not, the rookie plows forward.

Photography right now is a tough business to break into, because the market is flooded. So in order to really succeed you have to be the best in so many areas. I'm just touching on photography here (not business or marketing)...but in order to be the best, you have to work at it.

pcunite wrote in post #9950162
Well I guess doctors should just dismiss with the schooling then... What is your point?

Because once a Dr get out of school, or before, I'm not sure which, they have to intern with other, established doctors. They don't simply get classroom experience and then get to operate on/treat patients.

They get the benefit of working with and being supervised by people that know how to do the work.

My point is, that while it's all well and good to want to complain that people are doing something that they're not ready to do, it would also be nice if information were given on how they might go about getting ready and being qualified in the eyes of those that know better.

Edit: That, Permagrin, is some of what I was getting at. Nice post, and thank you.

I don't know if Id ever be ready for a wedding, so much pressure. I mean, if something goes wrong, they aren't getting married again tomorrow lol
that said, the last wedding I just attended was shot by a pro with many years of experience. Just saw the proofs on the website and wow...guys, wow.

Most, if not all, of them were underexposed, NO PP whatsoever, shots with eyes closed.
In the "posed wedding party" pics on the stage of the church you could see the back of the first row of plastic chairs across the bottom of all the photos.
The ppl in the center of the photos were almost exposed correctly, but the poor ppl at the edges hardly have any facial features because its so dark.
The best man was black and you couldn't even see his face well because it was so dark.

ugh...I feel so bad for the families that paid for those photos.
But, Im not sayin squat to them, not my biz.
Moral is...weddings are a BIG deal and there is a lot to muck up, no shame at all in saying you're not ready.

Snydremark wrote in post #9949801
Yes, the people hiring a photographer for their wedding or ANY event should be able to have the peace of mind that they're going to get the best results possible, no matter what.

That's been pretty well said and established here, but how about some suggestions from folks that do have the experience necessary to the new and inexperienced on HOW they can go about getting the experience necessary. One thing I notice in a lot of wedding threads around here is a general sentiment among existing wedding shooters that they don't like having "second" shooters on the job with them.

If experienced shooters aren't willing to do that, then how does a new shooter learn the specifics necessary to be "ready" to shoot a wedding? Recommendations on other styles of shooting that they could do to lead up to doing weddings? Places they could go to hook up with experienced photographers? Things like that.

Good thread, but let's try and give those that aren't ready some ways to solve that issue if and when they DO acknowledge it.

I'm always happy to share my own thoughts, insights, and experiences, and do so freely here. I look forward to working with an aspiring photographer as a second, at least once I've sold a two-photographer assignment. And when I need to look to the outside for an assistant I gladly take time to share with them.

Not to speak for others here, but I think the real issue is one over which comes first, the egg or the chicken. It's one thing for someone with good technical skills, a creative eye, and appropriate equipment who wants to break into weddings to have some questions or look for opportunities to second. Likewise, someone who aspires to get into this profession and simply wants to ask questions to help build those skills in anticipation of stepping into those shoes.

But that's not the way it tends to go here, at least not based on the first-wedding posts we seem to always see. They tend to be something like, hey; I've got a Rebel XT, a 50 1.8, and I hope to buy a flash soon; someone just asked me to shoot their wedding; I'm nervous as all hell, and what's this bouncing thing you guys talk about? I'm being a bit overly sardonic, but those first wedding posts do tend to follow that model. People take on these assignments and responsibilities BEFORE they've acquired the appropriate technical and creative skills.

Accessoire wrote in post #9950371
... the last wedding I just attended was shot by a pro with many years of experience. Just saw the proofs on the website and wow...guys, wow.

Most, if not all, of them were underexposed, NO PP whatsoever, shots with eyes closed.

That is not what a real professional will do, that was a hack with many years of experience. Experience is not the end all that people think it is. You need proper training... Simply repeating the same mistakes over and over again times 100 does not turn one into a professional. There is a hack in my area who claims to having done over 500 weddings. I actually think he is truthful on that part. The sad thing is his work is crap.

yeah, guess I should have put pro in quotation marks.
altho, they were paid, so I guess that does make them "professional" just not qualified.

I have seen many professional photographers with many years experience and making a decent living with photography, but they were poor photographers.

Professional != good or great, it just means your earning a living off of photography.

One of the things I did last year was, though my husband and I work as a team to shoot weddings, at 2 of the weddings we shot, we had another photographer (2 different ones) from here on POTN who were interested in either portrait or wedding photography but had no practical experience with it, shoot with us.

After each wedding, one said "whoa, that was so much harder physical work than I thought" and the other said "I'm never doing weddings"

Another thing we did to be helpful was when one potn photographer (who'd not done weddings) was shooting a wedding for family, we went and shot "2nd shooter". We offered backup/posing advice etc...and I think that we were useful.

Again, I'm not against helping people.
I am against saying "go for it" when it's absolutely not in the best interest of the photographer or the bride to do.

Permagrin wrote in post #9950504
I am against saying "go for it" when it's absolutely not in the best interest of the photographer or the bride to do.

I do agree with you that when it's not in the brides best interests, urging someone into the business is not a good thing. But there are exceptions. For instance, I have shot several weddings, enough to know that I am not a wedding photographer, but in all cases it was either for a friend or family member who clearly knew that I was not a wedding photographer and my results would not be on par with someone who does this type of work as a living. The expectation was clearly set and both bride and groom clearly knew what to expect and were ok with it.

pcunite wrote in post #9950428
Simply repeating the same mistakes over and over again times 100 does not turn one into a professional.

That should go in a book, somewhere

And you're absolutely right, experience AND training/education are both required to truly be good at doing anything. The training/education are the easier things to get, however. I'm just saying it would be nice to give the folks that aren't ready a nudge in an appropriate direction when they ask, rather than just saying "Hell no, you don't know enough yet" and leaving it at that. Whether those folks are grown up enough to TAKE the nudge and run with it is up to them.

gjl711 wrote in post #9950486
I have seen many professional photographers with many years experience and making a decent living with photography, but they were poor photographers.

Sometimes poor photographers, probably more often uninspired. I shake my head at how many poor quality "pros" I come across. And I think they have the skills; they just don't care anymore and are simply pounding their way through the events.