There is nothing wrong with saying "You Aren't ready!"

I was asked by my sister-in-law if I would/could shoot her daughters wedding when it comes (a few more years mind you) because she likes my laqndscapes. I had to explain to her that shooting a wedding and doing landscapes is 2 entirely different things, and that right now she would be better off hiring a weeding photog when the time comes. I like my sister-in-law and I think she likes me..and would like to keep it that way
Makes traveling 13 hours bearable if the in-laws like you...
Hopefully by the time her daughter(s) get married I will have garnered enough experience to be comfortable with doing it...

Well I think there will always be people doing their first wedding without the proper background weather or not there are forums to talk them through it (or out of it.) I'd say it's better to help someone at least have a better chance of getting better captures than to have someone go out there with no advice whatsoever and completely eff the whole thing up even worse.

Not everyone has a budget for photography and that's where these people fit in. It is better to have some pictures even if they aren't great than none at all. My grand parents literally have one single photo of themselves outside the church they were married at. That is It. It's a sad thing.

FELINEDEBOURGES wrote in post #9950928
Well I think there will always be people doing their first wedding without the proper background weather or not there are forums to talk them through it (or out of it.) I'd say it's better to help someone at least have a better chance of getting better captures than to have someone go out there with no advice whatsoever and completely eff the whole thing up even worse.

This is where I fundamentally disagree, would you offer a tip to a first time pilot who should not be in the air? Photography is not life and death, it is just the principle of it. Your aiding and abetting in their failure and thus makes these boards and those who read the semi-helpful thread seem okay. It is not okay.

pcunite wrote in post #9951319
This is where I fundamentally disagree, would you offer a tip to a first time pilot who should not be in the air? Photography is not life and death, it is just the principle of it. Your aiding and abetting in their failure and thus makes these boards and those who read the semi-helpful thread seem okay. It is not okay.

Actually a first time pilot will be with an instructor and I wouldn't be surprised if there are forums about flying planes where people DO ask about what to expect on their first flight out. So your comparison is really kinda dumb to me. No different than people who compare photography to being a surgeon or anything else completely different than photography. I don't see your point really.

FELINEDEBOURGES wrote in post #9951346
Actually a first time pilot will be with an instructor and I wouldn't be surprised if there are forums about flying planes where people DO ask about what to expect on their first flight out. So your comparison is really kinda dumb to me. No different than people who compare photography to being a surgeon or anything else completely different than photography. I don't see your point really.

Well I didn't think you would. There will be ten threads next week from hacks needing help. Be sure and post away... Let 'em know it is okay to get out and wreck the industry.

pcunite wrote in post #9951357
Well I didn't think you would. There will be ten threads next week from hacks needing help. Be sure and post away... Let 'em know it is okay to get out and wreck the industry.

Well I don't actually. I don't give advice. I just said I don't see a problem with it.

I would like to keep this thread without acrimony if possible. I think it could be a useful neutral ground for those that are intending to enter this arena...to see that there is so much beyond buying (or renting) a lens or flash...people won't read it if it's just another place where opposite sides are bashing one another.

While there are extenuating circumstances (such as family weddings that Gil mentioned) the intention of the thread isn't stopping people from progressing it's intended to re-direct them from doing weddings until they are prepared.

I realize you can never be totally prepared because there's always some extenuating circumstance to deal with BUT you can be as prepared as possible...by learning your craft before you take on such a responsibility. And it is a responsibility. Not a lark...or a place to practice.

Pcunite "the industry" will always be "wrecked"...by photographers that won't listen before they jump. And by brides who want bargains. Comparing photography to doctors or pilots isn't reasonable though. No life hangs in the balance with our industry. Happiness is affected but not health.

But as photographers, I think it's our responsibility to direct the inexperienced honestly. I truly don't think that the "buy this lens" mentality is doing the newbies any service.

FELINEDEBOURGES, often times "helping" the newbie IS saying "don't do it YET". Not saying buy this lens or whatever, that's not help...that's enabling. I'm not saying this is the case all the time...but there are times that it is. Some people aren't ready. Some are never ready. They may have all the desire in the world and no skill or no talent...and no work ethic. There is a place to say "no". Sometimes it's a service to everyone involved to say "you aren't ready".

Well... I'm shooting my first wedding as first shooter early next month.

I have been second shooter at 2 weddings and enjoyed the experience thoroughly. I have been shooting as a hobby for about 4 years now, i have a 40D and some decent gear, gathered up bit-by-bit since i started. I have shot everything from landscapes to sports to aircraft to portraits. I think i know the camera pretty well by now. I know how to take a good photo as well.

I am a great fan of apprenticeships as well, as was mentioned on the first page of this thread. So,... I emailed every wedding photographer within 100 miles with an offer of a free second shooter and some samples of my work. I only got one reply and that was a no.

Now i think if i offer my services for absolutely nothing and even say i do not need hand-holding on the day of the wedding, just want to see how things are done as i help, and get one reply from about 40 emails, then i have no choice but to have a crack at it!

I am nervous about it, but i know i can do a great job and have the ability to impress the couple.

I hate the "Pro's" telling everyone else that they shouldn't do this and that they should leave it to the professionals, and then when they show no support to anyone trying to break into the wedding market, even when not in their geographical/customer area thus not stealing their business!

I think that a lot (not all) pro's are ****ting themselves in case they lose business to an amateur. Or , in many cases i have seen some great Film photographers come unstuck with the move into digital. They normally say: "I do PROPER photography!" with a smug smile. I normally hear " I can't work photoshop!"

In my opinion, weddings are not rocket science. Get your shotlist and recon the couple and the venues. Planning is 90% of it. The trouble only comes when you **** something up, cos there is no second take with weddings. Thats what makes em so stressful.

I hope that many amateurs who are ready have a go at it. Weddings have become big business and i think they are over-priced and way too extravagant. During this global financial crisis there are plenty of people out there that want a £250 wedding photographer and a CD full of proofs. Thats where you wannabe wedding photographers come in. For £250 i think a CD full of an amateurs best work is a great deal, like i said, it ain't rocket science just because the pro's like to pretend it is :P

Richy...

richy5497 wrote in post #9951552
I hope that many amateurs who are ready have a go at it. Weddings have become big business and i think they are over-priced and way too extravagant. During this global financial crisis there are plenty of people out there that want a £250 wedding photographer and a CD full of proofs.

Most qualified wedding professionals don't want to live with their mother so they charge what it takes to feed themselves and their family, plus everything else a real business must do. Next...

Richy, some pros truly won't help because they don't want the competition.

Here though, on potn, because it's world wide, I don't think that's what people are doing. At least that's my opinion. I think if they truly are saying "if you have to ask that, you aren't ready"...they have no ulterior motive (at least most of the time).

Honestly, part of apprenticeship is doing something over and over until it passes the "master's" opinion. That means hearing "nope, go back and try again" a lot. You learn by doing. That means practice...and if you can't practice at weddings (and people shouldn't), practice everywhere you can, learning the things you'll need at weddings.

There are stickies around here that talk about what's needed (the basics) so there are references. But truly, time spent in craft is the biggest teacher. Time and listening to your peers, mentors, teachers etc. Being open to learn.

Permagrin wrote in post #9944594
I've seen thread after thread about "My first wedding....".

Some of the posters are prepared but scared and just need encouragement.

And...some are SO not ready to be shooting weddings! When did it become the PC thing to try to have to teach a rookie photographer everything they need to know to shoot a wedding in 1 easy lesson, instead of saying "whoa...take a step back and LEARN flash...LEARN posing...LEARN how to use your camera and DON'T practice on a wedding".

Why is it considered rude to say this? It's true. People should not learn their craft at someone's wedding.

Before you say "everyone has to start somewhere"...yes they do. They should start by LEARNING how to use their camera. Learning how to do the basics. Practicing on friends, family and etc. Getting familiar enough with their gear that they don't need to ask "what settings" etc...because they know enough that EVERY situation requires thoughtful preparation unique to that situation instead of a "green box fits all" photograpahy.

Does this mean no one should have a "first" wedding? Of course not. Everyone DOES have to start somewhere.

However, starting somewhere does not mean: buy a camera, buy a lens, take a few snapshots and shoot a wedding.

I suppose this is a bit of a rant. But it makes me absolutely crazy that honest people will say "you are not ready if you have to ask this..." and get thrashed around here for it.

Can no one accept the truth anymore? Does PC have to rule the day despite disastrous results? Have you seen some (not all) of the "first wedding" photos posted?

Again, I'm not talking about everyone here who's trying to break into the wedding business. I just don't get it that self styled photographers put their own "wants" before their abilities/skill or even their brides.

So I'm asking...WHY is it wrong to say "you aren't ready" when someone clearly isn't? That isn't proud. It isn't shutting someone out...it is being honest. Follow it up with "this is what you need to do..." but for heavens sake, stop giving out "buy this lens" "bounce this flash" and "hope for the best". That does no one any good.

Where did this rant come from?

PhotoMatte wrote in post #9954299
Where did this rant come from?

It's pretty much born out of the endless cycle of "How Do I Do X... or Is Y Good Enough...because I'm shooting my first wedding tomorrow / next week / next month!" and the bulk of the replies lacking any willingness to try and convince the person asking that if they don't know how to do X or only own Y, then maybe they aren't ready for the big time yet.

The one concept that tends to get overlooked in these discussions is the idea of "Transfer of Training."

You don't have to shoot a wedding to learn how to bounce flash, pose groups or shoot wide open. You can do this with friends and family and probably still make a buck or two along the way if you find yourself producing quality images.

Shooting your parents, kids, brother, sister or co-workers is a lot less stressful and they're far less likely to sue you for breach of contract if you screw the pooch out on a fun shoot than if you happen to do it to some Bridezilla on "her day!"

It can (and frankly should) take a long time to build a reputation as a professional who delivers high-quality work anytime, anywhere but it only takes one bad day to get a rep as someone nobody should ever hire.

Most pro's don't want to live with their mums? If i were a qualified wedding photographer, i would only be a "pro" if it was my MAIN occupation. (The clue's in the name...Pro!) Anyone who does this as a secondary occupation isn't a pro, no matter how good they are. I do a lot of paid portraiture work, but from 9-5 i repair photocopiers. I'm a pro photocopier tech, with qualifications and expertise in that field. I earn a good steady income from that. But, being married i have to fund new photo gear. So, i do portraiture, i'm an amateur portrait photographer. My customers know this and i don't hide it. They get me for cheaper than a full-time (professional) photographer with qualifications. Are my photo's any worse than theirs? Probably not, but i charge less and i don't live with my mum. I live with my wife and 2 kids, i don't spend any of the household income on camera's or lenses because i do a little portrait work for that.

The world of photography is full of opportunities for amateurs with ability and talent. The days of "I spent $5000 on 'John Doe Photographys' wedding package with 3 albums and mini albums and 100 prints, a canvas and..." are gone. The celebrity culture and magazine weddings have done much good for wedding photographers, but now there is more opportunity for us wannabe's to get our foot on the wedding ladder. In general, we might be better or worse, we've no proof either way, except our portfolio's. To be honest i think that the bride is normally savvy enough to make a decision on who will be the right person for the job. I got inspiration from the Pro who shot my wedding. He was shooting weddings for over 20 years and he made a pigs-ear of ours. Things like that hardly dissuade us wannabe's. I dunno if he was generally bad, took it for granted, hated us or just had an off-day? But i did know i could produce better.

The internet is the best resource for learning ever created. Information can be had on anything. 20 years ago, to get a typical shot list for a wedding would have required the following:
A trip to the local library to find the book on weddings, probably none there on wedding photography. Maybe a trip to a city bookstore or library. Asking a wedding photographer maybe, but he'll not help you, your gonna steal his business. Get some books ordered in especially, wait 2-4 weeks for em.

Now, you go to any of the Computers/PDA's, Mobile phones and type the following: "Wedding shot list"

Try it on anything, the next thing you need to do today type it into google and see how many hits you get. In the past i have tried:
Adjust Shimano gears
Make macaroni & cheese
Restore an Acer Aspire One Netbook

Can i:
Adjust the geari on a bike...yep
make Macaroni & cheese...yep
Reformat a Hard Disk on a netbook...yep

Am i:
a cycle mechanic...nope
a chef...nope
a pc technician...nope (i used to be a pro computer service engineer but now i'm an amateur one...see above)

So is my Macaroni & cheese as good as Gordon Ramsey's? After a few times making it, probably yes. It's his recipe afterall, he showed me how to make it on the internet. I use the same gear and consumables he does. If i were to ask someone at a party if they'd like me to make their macaroni and cheese for the buffet for say...$50 or have Gordon Ramsey make it for $200. I assume most who had $200 would ask for Ramsey. Some would be skint for whatever reason and would enjoy my macaroni & cheese for less. Do you think Gordon Ramsey is sh*tting himself because he showed the whole internet how to cook???

Please excuse any misprints and the like, i'm typing this on a handheld PDA.

My point is that everyone can do everything thanks to the internet. We're all amateurs in every field imaginable. A person only has enough time to be a "Pro" in one field, if this is you, then you should be pretty good at it. If you aren't, then move the hell over for us amateurs who want to be, cos i'm tired staring at the insides of a copier ;P

I generally agree with your comments, Richy, with minor exception. Photography is a creative pursuit. When you're fixing a bike, you're putting nuts on top of bolts and need only so much techinical information to do so. When you're making mac & cheese (which I can't doops, you're applying some basic tactical steps that really anyone can learn.

Not everyone, though, can paint a picture (I know I can't). Not everyone has the ability to write a poem or song. An eye for creative, good-quality photography is something some people are born with. It's something that most others can acquire, but it takes the personal investment of A LOT more time and effort than simply downloading a recipe off the internet. And on top of that, it requires a mastery of technical skills so that you can translate your vision for a shot into reality.

To take this back to where the OP began, there are those who take the all-I've-gotta-do-is-apply-ABC-steps mentaility to photography and fail to create any art at all. At best, they deliver a large collection of snapshots. The reality is, they typically lack enough understanding to even critique their own work in a meaningful way; they don't grasp the difference between fine art photography and a snapshot. What makes this worse is that too often, not only do they take an ABC approach to photography, they take on the responsilbity of a wedding and then say, gee, I need to know what the ABC steps are.

As I've said here often, there are two kinds of problems in this world; mine and someone else's. I know which one this is. The couple and photographer deserve what they get whether good or bad and if everyone's happy with the result, no skin off my back. I just shake my head at the mindset that brings someone to say, hey; I've got a "big" camera, all I need to do is ABC and I'm a professional wedding photographer.

Permagrin wrote in post #9951694
But truly, time spent in craft is the biggest teacher. Time and listening to your peers, mentors, teachers etc. Being open to learn.

that right there is GOLD !

the best thing you can do is read, try it out .. and see if it clicks in your head .. if not, try it again, again and again till it does .. to a point, you can get an idea of how that shot was done

i had to find this out the hard way .. but there is no secret sauce, forumula, no secret gear combo .. NOTHING ! after so much $$ spend chasing the end of the rainbow