Everyone's a pro nowadays.

nicksan wrote in post #10030264
That's true. I guess if you are 65 and still doing it, the proof is simply in the pudding.

I think you got to the heart of the matter. Consistency. And it makes completely sense that the number of "reps" is what gets you that consistency most of the time. In other words experience...

Well I'm not 65 yet but I've been making a living in photography since I was 23. I damn sure don't want to be doing this when I'm 65, I want to be on a beach somewhere sipping beer and thinking dirty old man thoughts.

breal101 wrote in post #10030341
Well I'm not 65 yet but I've been making a living in photography since I was 23. I damn sure don't want to be doing this when I'm 65, I want to be on a beach somewhere sipping beer and thinking dirty old man thoughts.

Crap I'm not near 65 yet either though some days I feel like it. I've been making money in photography since 1979. Full time since 1986.

argyle wrote in post #10029928
Maybe what you consider "crappy" looks good to their clients. Some photographers find a niche market for their processing style and learn to exploit it...nothing wrong with that. Don't forget...beauty (or art) is in the eye of the beholder. OTOH, what's "trendy" today may not be tomorrow. But to call someone's work "crappy" because you don't like their style is a bit disingenuous on your part...jealousy maybe?

Jealousy? Maybe you'd have a point if I weren't getting business as well. Face it, as photographers our worst work is often pleasing to the masses. We all know that. And we all know that there are photogs out there that simply shovel crap just to get paid. Jealous? Nope.. I'm more irritated that he has no respect for the art.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #10029996
Constant stream of business to me sounds like portrait/wedding/entry level model shooters. Those are areas that are seeing the biggest hits.

In areas where you deal with other visual professionals like I've said, Joe has said, breal has said, Jay has said, you probably wont get through the door but for sure won't last if you don't have skills.

You sir hit the nail on the head. But sadly all you see in mags now are the over contrasted, low saturation/yellow hued lomo inspired photos. Just pick up WWD if you don't believe me.

AudibleSilence wrote in post #10030473
You sir hit the nail on the head. But sadly all you see in mags now are the over contrasted, low saturation/yellow hued lomo inspired photos. Just pick up WWD if you don't believe me.

Fashion maybe. There are a few of those photographers and art directors that are driving the look. Its always kinda been that way. Then next year or the year after those same people will make a conscience decision to change that look and those followers may or may not have the skills to follow those trends. The guy making the $$$ is the guy creating the trends not the follower though the follower can make a buck or two in the process but its not the long term kind of sustainability that the guys creating the trends have and that even fleeting.

Thats an industry that if you are not hired by the clothing manufacturers or the magazines themselves you have to shoot so much of those entry level models to make any $$$$ and you are not the ones leading the way visually. Those are the guys working for the magazines and the clothing manufacturers and other such companies. Fashion is not an area I would want to work in to try and steadily support a family.

The high end world is so fickle and the low end world like the low end wedding world you have to shoot so much to make a living if you can at all. I actually did some of that when I was much younger and the real money when you are hired by the catalog or the clothing manufacturer or the magazine itself. Not much in entry level model work. The models don't have any money and when they get big they get the big guys to shoot them or use tear sheets from the shoots that were published.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #10030615
Fashion maybe. There are a few of those photographers and art directors that are driving the look. Its always kinda been that way. Then next year or the year after those same people will make a conscience decision to change that look and those followers may or may not have the skills to follow those trends. The guy making the $$$ is the guy creating the trends not the follower though the follower can make a buck or two in the process but its not the long term kind of sustainability that the guys creating the trends have and that even fleeting.

Thats an industry that if you are not hired by the clothing manufacturers or the magazines themselves you have to shoot so much of those entry level models to make any $$$$ and you are not the ones leading the way visually. Those are the guys working for the magazines and the clothing manufacturers and other such companies. Fashion is not an area I would want to work in to try and steadily support a family.

The high end world is so fickle and the low end world like the low end wedding world you have to shoot so much to make a living if you can at all. I actually did some of that when I was much younger and the real money when you are hired by the catalog or the clothing manufacturer or the magazine itself. Not much in entry level model work. The models don't have any money and when they get big they get the big guys to shoot them or use tear sheets from the shoots that were published.

If anything you've made me feel a lot better...thanks.

breal101 wrote in post #10030341
Well I'm not 65 yet but I've been making a living in photography since I was 23. I damn sure don't want to be doing this when I'm 65, I want to be on a beach somewhere sipping beer and thinking dirty old man thoughts.

Hey, I am at the beach sipping beer...except I am on vacation in Florida. I head back home today, where reality is going to hit me hard!

AudibleSilence wrote in post #10030468
Jealousy? Maybe you'd have a point if I weren't getting business as well. Face it, as photographers our worst work is often pleasing to the masses. We all know that. And we all know that there are photogs out there that simply shovel crap just to get paid. Jealous? Nope.. I'm more irritated that he has no respect for the art.

Thats why I prefer to work with other visual professionals and they are the ones deciding on images. Its not easy and you have to be able to fully defend your work and your position in a very positive, constructive way. Its no place for the weak or the faint of heart. Its usually a collaboration and it can be a real blast when its all working. It can be hell when its not but the real pro can pull it all together anyway and when its all finished and in print on a billboard, in the ad or brochure, no one remembers how painful it was as long as it gets done and done right and the client is happy.

I've never really cared before except at weddings when other DSLR users follow me of I lose a wedding to someone who has a camera as a family friend and then I hear complaints later how they should have used me or someone and hated their photos. I missed out on money and making people happy...and I'M CHEAP! So to be that cheap and use a friend that has no clue and the B&G always generally have an idea, that's just sad.

No, what has gotten me is that I started helping and coteaching a photography class and I've spoke to the kids a bit. I kept referring to it as a hobby one day but that's a no-no. AS if the profession isn't hard enough the teacher told that the kids aren't there for it to be a hobby. I'm sorry, until they are living on photography alone, it's a hobby. Heck, even I get paid and I call it a hobby. Do I do it in free time? Is it my sole source of income?

That pissed me off and I told her that. I told her it is a hobby. It's nice to have hobbies that turn into your job but it is a hobby and if you only look at it like a job then you'll start to suck and hate it, like most people hate their jobs. I love doing weddings and shoots but it's more than a job to me when I do it. It's a rare moment, like when you carry your camera everywhere in case something happens, and you get to capture it!

But yeah, I told them the truth that you more than likely won't make it that only 5 out of every class will be doing this as their sole income and that sure some may make some money doing wedding or something like me, but you'll probably have another job. Heck, it's safe anyhow too because competition is so rough it may not be till one is 30 or so that it's their sole source of income. Yeah it's stretched based on nothing really but I wanted to tell them the truth, not what their teacher is spoonfeeding them. They work with film making art and if you go into weddings, it won't be like that. Life overall is different and they don't get that...

_aravena wrote in post #10031033
I've never really cared before except at weddings when other DSLR users follow me of I lose a wedding to someone who has a camera as a family friend and then I hear complaints later how they should have used me or someone and hated their photos. I missed out on money and making people happy...and I'M CHEAP! So to be that cheap and use a friend that has no clue and the B&G always generally have an idea, that's just sad.

No, what has gotten me is that I started helping and coteaching a photography class and I've spoke to the kids a bit. I kept referring to it as a hobby one day but that's a no-no. AS if the profession isn't hard enough the teacher told that the kids aren't there for it to be a hobby. I'm sorry, until they are living on photography alone, it's a hobby. Heck, even I get paid and I call it a hobby. Do I do it in free time? Is it my sole source of income?

That pissed me off and I told her that. I told her it is a hobby. It's nice to have hobbies that turn into your job but it is a hobby and if you only look at it like a job then you'll start to suck and hate it, like most people hate their jobs. I love doing weddings and shoots but it's more than a job to me when I do it. It's a rare moment, like when you carry your camera everywhere in case something happens, and you get to capture it!

But yeah, I told them the truth that you more than likely won't make it that only 5 out of every class will be doing this as their sole income and that sure some may make some money doing wedding or something like me, but you'll probably have another job. Heck, it's safe anyhow too because competition is so rough it may not be till one is 30 or so that it's their sole source of income. Yeah it's stretched based on nothing really but I wanted to tell them the truth, not what their teacher is spoonfeeding them. They work with film making art and if you go into weddings, it won't be like that. Life overall is different and they don't get that...

Yep thats why most with degrees are the ones working with art directors and other visual professionals and making a decent living doing it but I doubt that 2 percent of those will actually have the drive to do what is necessary to be successful in that industry. School is just the start.

When you get out of school I would highly recommend working for a commercial shooter working in the field that you think you want to go into. You will do **** work for practically nothing and you will have to do it for years but the experience, knowledge and the connections are more than worth it.

All of that visual instruction that you call art might not help you in the wedding field but that creative nurturing will pay dividends in the commercial world when its not a bride or a mom making creative decisions. I still think it does help in any field because a good photograph is a good photograph whether its a wedding photograph a fine art photograph or a commercial/advertising photograph and the really good ones transcend all areas.

I'm a photographer. If I hated what I do I would get out. It is the best job I have ever had. To get up every day and do what I love is a privilege. And doing it for myself is just a bonus. Is it perfect heck no but it sure beats dreading getting up and going to work at an office everyday. I do it for a living, a hobby , I've taught and there usually isn't a day that goes by that I don't so something photographic. And I still LOVE IT.

I do agree that most will only have it as a hobby or as a weekend warrior and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I agree that the teacher was a bit outta line but she could be trying to get her students to take it seriously. I mean that 2 percent might just be someone thats not taking it serious enough.

nicksan wrote in post #10030192
Anyways, I don't even know why I am getting into all this because it's like trying to convince my parents. And no, I am not a teenager...actually closer to middle aged. Still haven't won an argument with my parents yet...

Nor will you, you young punk!

When I go out to shoot I am not thinking where I fit into the photography profession (hobby or pro) I am thinking about the image I want to make and whether that is going to happen. Teaching a sport as a hobby rather than profession is detrimental IMO if in fact hobby means watered down access to real information. Photography is not a sport that produces easy quick satisfying results (though that can be debated endlessly millions enjoy taking snapshots). It takes years to understand and control the process. I may not make a living at photography but I want to be the best I can be when the lights right and the subject appears. I think of photography like golf. I may suck at it but the game is interesting and keeps me on my toes!

AudibleSilence wrote in post #10030468
Jealousy? Maybe you'd have a point if I weren't getting business as well. Face it, as photographers our worst work is often pleasing to the masses. We all know that. And we all know that there are photogs out there that simply shovel crap just to get paid. Jealous? Nope.. I'm more irritated that he has no respect for the art.

Then if you're getting business, what's the complaint? Why should you care if others are getting a steady flow of work? Again, "crap" to you may not be "crap" to their clients. You really need to get over it, and get over yourself. If you're as good as you and your clients think you are, work will continue to come your way. Forget about everyone else and focus on what YOU need to be successful...life's too short. And be thankful that there's plenty of work to go around.

Photography is like writing; everybody thinks they can do it. But almost nobody can.

For every published author, there are a thousand wannabes who just flat out can't write. For every Stephen King there are a thousand published authors whose books are only good for recycling. And for every William Shakespeare there are a thousand Stephen Kings.