Everyone's a pro nowadays.

birdfromboat wrote in post #10027212
I have started to reply to this 3 times and deleted 3 times. I just gotta say it: I agree, there are alot of very arrogant, self important artists of all kinds- it is just easier to find the photographers that aint got the chops cause their work is so easily compared to others work.
Every field of work out there has its share of people with that fake it till you make it arrogance, there is always some old age and treachery, some good old boy networks and lots of know it all experts. Photography is no different.
When I was struggling to get through school, I took all kinds of jobs. I met arrogant table busboys, self important gas station attendants, and guys that thought they were the worlds greatest school custodians. Some people just can't get any pleasure out of being good at something unless they can be the best, and some of those guys think that the only way to be the best is to tell everyone that they are the best.
It's a problem best solved by distance, as in keep walking, turn away and keep moving, or in some cases run. Whatever you do don't let it bother you, and rest assured that when skill really matters, when it's life and death, the government steps in and administers tests for your protection. Hire journeyman electricians that are licensed and bonded, get your car worked on by certified mechanics, go to a doctor that has a diploma on the wall and make sure your lawyer has passed the bar exam. But if you are hiring a wedding photographer, all you can do is look at their portfolio and if it just doesn't stand up to be as good as they think they are, keep moving. fast.
It's just like any other profession, but with apologies to all the truly great pro photographers out there that might read this, it aint exactly rocket science and it definitely isn't life and death.

I agree!! Its sad, at least for me, that I have found this arrogant attitude to be more common among photographers!! Thank God this site seems to bean exception. I was lurking around on another well known photography site and I just couldnt believe the language used, the lack of respect towards other members....it was insane! These people were acting as if they were literally born with a camera up theirs...you know! LOL!

Brain Mechanic wrote in post #10027248
I agree!! Its sad, at least for me, that I have found this arrogant attitude to be more common among photographers!! Thank God this site seems to bean exception. I was lurking around on another well known photography site and I just couldnt believe the language used, the lack of respect towards other members....it was insane! These people were acting as if they were literally born with a camera up theirs...you know! LOL!

I don't know if this helps but there are truly no secrets in photography, only knowledge and no matter how uppity some act they were at one time challenged in their knowledge or maybe they still are because I've found those that are the most arrogant are usually the ones that have nothing or very little anyway.

iwasinvertedx wrote in post #10021068
It's an interesting phenomenon that since DSLRs became more affordable, everyone seems to be photographer now. It seems that just because you have the camera, say a Rebel, you're instantly some great photographer.

This guy I went to high school with, and now college, he has an XSi and seems to be excessively proud of his photos. They're not particularly strong images in terms of lighting and composition, and mine aren't incredible either, but it wouldn't hurt to have some humility.

I do like that cameras are more accessible to the general public, but it does bother me that suddenly everyone is so arrogant of their work. It's almost as if having the camera itself is a sort of status symbol. And in general, a lot of people are just trying to flaunt it without making art.

Sorry, this was just a little rant about how photography is changing with the advances in technology. I should take a cultural anthropology class and write a paper about this. haha.

I'm assuming most people have had a similar observation. Any thoughts?

Art is subjective. Your individual notion of art may stray far from what another would consider to hold lesser/equal/greater value.

art is not entirely subjective, in my opinion, and also in the opinion of many others

nicksan wrote in post #10027136
There is absolutely no substitute for quality experience. I completely agree with that. Yes, if you've been doing it for the last 30 years and making a living doing it then you are doing something right. I think a certain level of proficiency is implied however but not guaranteed. You can be mediocre and still make a living for a very long time, provided you market yourself right. Why? B/c the public at large doesn't know any better. If they did, we wouldn't have cookie cutter pop music, tabloid magazines, etc. But we do, and we'll also have people hiring mediocre photographers for whatever job that needs to be done.

Just the way it is. Ranting about it in a photography forum won't get anything done...IMO.

Nick, this is where your argument starts to fall apart. You assume that photographers who have been around for a long time are hired by the general public. In so many cases they are instead hired by other professionals and creatives. The average time an art director spends at an agency is about two years, yet with every change the new art director often hires a photographer who worked with his/her predecessor. This wouldn't make any sense if that photographer is stale and the quality of his work is bad. The old saying that a new broom sweeps clean often doesn't apply. Not saying that it never happens but experience working in a team environment and being able to transform a concept into an image consistently goes a long way. Since you live in NY try to get an opportunity to attend a high end advertising shoot with one of the old timers you so casually deride, it will open your eyes. I can guarantee that.

breal101 wrote in post #10027597
Nick, this is where your argument starts to fall apart. You assume that photographers who have been around for a long time are hired by the general public. In so many cases they are instead hired by other professionals and creatives. The average time an art director spends at an agency is about two years, yet with every change the new art director often hires a photographer who worked with his/her predecessor. This wouldn't make any sense if that photographer is stale and the quality of his work is bad. The old saying that a new broom sweeps clean often doesn't apply. Not saying that it never happens but experience working in a team environment and being able to transform a concept into an image consistently goes a long way. Since you live in NY try to get an opportunity to attend a high end advertising shoot with one of the old timers you so casually deride, it will open your eyes. I can guarantee that.

Have I derided all "old timers"? Did I not say "some" old timers? I also remember qualifying that with quantity vs. quality and you should also read my response to Alen. I think that might clear things up as far as me "deriding" old timers are concerned.

Sure, I live in NYC. However why would I attend a "high end advertising shoot"? In fact, why even bring that up? Are you looking to school me? It will "open my eyes"? To what? How it's really done? Or how it's really done in a very specific field within the vastness that is photography? Heck, why should I care what they do in that field? I am not in that field. Does being some kind of small time neighborhood photographer or small-time weekend warrior wedding phtographer make that person any less than the so-called high end shooters?

Ridiculous...oh...and old school thinking that needs to go away...and from the looks of it, it is, slowly but surely.

mikekelley wrote in post #10026494
This thread has it all. I'm impressed. Pros, shmoes, and everything in between!

My brain hurts reading this thread...

As far as "everyone being a Pro" - think I'll take a pic of the Parents at the Soccer field by where I live... (average Soccer Dad carries $2,500 worth of Nikon ).

Think I'll bring my Pocket 110...

nicksan wrote in post #10027749
Ridiculous...oh...and old school thinking that needs to go away...and from the looks of it, it is, slowly but surely.

Hmm old school thinking of high end shooters, anyway the ones that I know, usually means quality, mastering your tools and your vision and consistently delivering the work that exceeds the client expectations. Photography is in big trouble if any of what I just mentioned disappears.

nicksan wrote in post #10027749
Have I derided all "old timers"? Did I not say "some" old timers? I also remember qualifying that with quantity vs. quality and you should also read my response to Alen. I think that might clear things up as far as me "deriding" old timers are concerned.

Sure, I live in NYC. However why would I attend a "high end advertising shoot"? In fact, why even bring that up? Are you looking to school me? It will "open my eyes"? To what? How it's really done? Or how it's really done in a very specific field within the vastness that is photography? Heck, why should I care what they do in that field? I am not in that field. Does being some kind of small time neighborhood photographer or small-time weekend warrior wedding phtographer make that person any less than the so-called high end shooters?

Ridiculous...oh...and old school thinking that needs to go away...and from the looks of it, it is, slowly but surely.

Old school thinking like actually learning a craft before you start charging people for doing it. Is that what you mean? Now I know exactly how Clarence Laughlin felt when confronted by the new breed of photographers he called hip shooters. Jeez, I promised myself I wouldn't become bitter but attitudes like yours make it very, very difficult.

And yes high end shooters have a lot more to offer than the weekend warrior or neighborhood photographer. It's called talent and experience.

Another factor that hasn't been mentioned here is that photography as a sport has matured over the last 100 years and there are literally more really good photographers around then there used to be. I like to think of artisan through the practice of Flamenco guitar. There are a lot of young players who are really good and if they continue by the time they hit 42 or so they not only have the chops they are virtuosos at their craft. In Spain the bar is set high for Flamenco guitarists and there is nothing like a living master practicing their craft. It's magic.

Everyone thinks they are a pro, but they aren't, just laugh at them.

There may be a ton of good photographers but there are still photographers who are a cut above.

mikekelley wrote in post #10027370
art is not entirely subjective, in my opinion, and also in the opinion of many others

Care to expand on that? I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this.

In my opinion art should make you think, wonder, look, listen, be interested in it to some degree. A lot of so called "art" doesn't do this. Good art should let you do this, should let you explore, be inspired, etc.

That's what makes art good. Not everything does this. There's a lot of grey area, for sure, however, art can absolutely be defined as good, bad, lacking, boring, dull, etc. To say it's all subjective is a total cop out.

If you want to argue that anything can do that, you're kidding yourself, because we know that there are, for example, photographs, or any art for that matter, that had no thought put into them, are poorly executed in terms of fundamentals and compositional elements, etc.

breal101 wrote in post #10027889
And yes high end shooters have a lot more to offer than the weekend warrior or neighborhood photographer. It's called talent and experience.

This is a pretty broad statement to make without knowing the talent level and experience of some of these "weekend warrior or neighborhood photographers".

An excellent example of both ignorance and arrogance.

It's true..I know a lot of musicians who are absolutely amazing and could play circles around a lot of popular musicians, but they aren't in it for the money, just enjoyment that it brings them. I'm sure the same could be said for more than a handful of non-professional photographers.