Everyone's a pro nowadays.

thebishopp wrote in post #10028161
This is a pretty broad statement to make without knowing the talent level and experience of some of these "weekend warrior or neighborhood photographers".

An excellent example of both ignorance and arrogance.

Until I see a weekend warrior shooting an ad campaign for Cartier or some other high end advertiser I'll stand by my statement. Maybe you can show me one.

Shooting an advertisement for a high end company is not a qualifier for talent.

Touring the country as a musician is not a qualifier for talent, either.

Your statement is utterly ridiculous.

breal101 wrote in post #10028244
Until I see a weekend warrior shooting an ad campaign for Cartier or some other high end advertiser I'll stand by my statement. Maybe you can show me one.

That's the beauty about being a weekend warrior ... not having to shoot an ad campaign. I don't envy the working photographer.

mikekelley wrote in post #10028401
Shooting an advertisement for a high end company is not a qualifier for talent.

One Time? You're correct... Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while.

However, being hired repeatedly to shoot high-end ad campaigns? That requires talent (both marketing and photographic.)

What I'm attempting to say is that in order to possess talent you do not need to be shooting high end gigs. Might have worded it iffy.

One "problem" I see in this thread is that some people seem to want to equate "Working Photographer" with "Artist" and the two terms are not interchangeable.

I know several working pros who support their passion (Aviation, Fine Art Nudes, Fine Art Landscapes) by taking gigs shooting the most mundane of projects. E-sessions, Weddings, Seniors, Products, String for the AP, HS Sports, Event + On-Site Sales.

The common thread with all of them however is that they have the ability to deliver on spec, on time, every time. Not just when they feel like it or when the planets align properly but through rain, wind, snow, darkness, gear failures (they've invested serious cash to have backups for backups .. many amateurs don't), flaky models, flaky clients, flaky MUAs, double booked locations and on and on and on.

The true test of a "Pro" isn't what you can produce when everything goes right. It's what you can still produce when everything goes wrong!

I don't really care that's your world not mine and maybe my art suffers for it but I'm tired of hearing how special "pro's" are when you're really no better at what you do for a living than I am at what I do. I have all the same deadlines and responsibilities. I design high tech products. It's a learned skill that can be acquired and many have why not others?

jetcode wrote in post #10028619
I don't really care that's your world not mine and maybe my art suffers for it but I'm tired of hearing how special "pro's" are when you're really no better at what you do for a living than I am at what I do. It's a learned skill that can be acquired and many have why not others?

Absolutely nobody here has said that the skills necessary can't be learned.

In fact, IMO, this entire "discussion" hinges on the opposing ideas of learning the craft of photography from the ground up Vs just picking up a dSLR and calling yourself a professional photographer.

Of course the skills can be learned.

I had to delete that post ... the point I think I'm aiming for here is that in my profession (30 years in engineering on a wide variety of embedded applications) my colleagues never discuss the notion of "pro". Never have. We do our job. I don't get paid if I don't deliver. No one else does either.

The notion of "pro" comes up more often in photography than any other subject I know of. Why is that? Does identity change the craft?

I usually find that the guys who say they aren't very good at photography usually are quite good and those who claim to be amazing fall a bit short.

I realize I have issues getting the right shot sometimes but I have figured out the formula,,, 9 out of 10 of my pictures suck,,, but 1 out of 10 are really good... so the secret is to take lots of pictures. Because of this I could never make it as a "pro" though, my output is too predictably unpredictable.

jetcode wrote in post #10028723
I had to delete that post ... the point I think I'm aiming for here is that in my profession (30 years in engineering on a wide variety of embedded applications) my colleagues never discuss the notion of "pro". Never have. We do our job. I don't get paid if I don't deliver. No one else does either.

Is there a way for someone to be an amateur engineer of embedded applications? Do you ever decry "wannabe" embedded aplication engineers? Ever get lowballed or undercut by someone who just bought a book on embedded application engineering and stole a contract out from under you? Do EA Engineers advertise on Craigslist and are any willing to give away not only the finished app but all the source code as well?

My point here is that photographers (and media people in general I think) suffer more from the inroads made by amateurs and intermediate-level counerparts than do a lot of professions. It's pretty rampant in the TV Production world as well. Probably going to get nothing but worse with dSLR video. Many people lost a lot of work when the engineering "powers that be" decided that traditional broadcast standards no longer applied and that a DV Cam, Premiere / Final Cut, Cakewalk and a DVD Burner were all you needed to become a "Production House." Same goes for photography I think.

Just as Joe Public became a video production house by reading Video Editing For Dummies, he can now become a photographer by reading Digital Photography For Dummies.

Actually, I would hope the opposite is true. The Craft (and the level at which it is practised) should be what changes the Identity.

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #10028422
One Time? You're correct... Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while.

However, being hired repeatedly to shoot high-end ad campaigns? That requires talent (both marketing and photographic.)

I attribute such things more to connections and marketing. Which is why people need to talk the talk to get the work.

If you tell enough stupid people how brilliant you are; you will eventually be considered brilliant. Works for politicians all the time.

themadman wrote in post #10028829
I attribute such things more to connections and marketing. Which is why people need to talk the talk to get the work.

And I wouldn't disagree insofar as getting a foot in the door and getting started goes. Or if you're happy being a "One and Done" type of shooter where you never have to go back to the same agency / client more than once.

After many years mucking about near the top of the sports broadcasting world, my own experiences have shown me that, eventually, you will be called on to walk the walk.

And you'd better be able to deliver the goods.

The media "ladder" is very much shaped like a pyramid. Really wide base with room for lots of people but as you move up, there is less and less "wiggle" room. And if by some miracle you happen to actually reach the pinnacle, the view is great but there's nowhere to go but down!

themadman wrote in post #10028829
I attribute such things more to connections and marketing. Which is why people need to talk the talk to get the work.

Most commercial/advertising jobs require you to work with others that also have knowledge. Like art directors and graphic designers. You might be able to fool them and get in the door but to be successful you had better deliver the goods or you ain't stay'n at the table. If you are going to be successful you have to have repeat business. You have to be in it for the long haul.

Its not like shooting a job and never having to see that client again and having an endless pool to to get work from. You blow a job or the art director sees that your not what you claimed to be (it'll show in the work and how you work) not only will he not use you he will tell all his art director buddies.

Connections, absolutely and those connections come from having knowledge and a solid foot in the field and also giving the client the goods. If you can't deliver the work you are not going to be successful no matter how good you market. These peoples reps and jobs are on the line so if they hire a schmoe they have a price to pay.