Wrong Attitude About School?

I am new to photography and loving it. Right now photography for me is nothing more than a very enjoyable hobby, that I am trying to take seriously. First an foremost it's for me, but I would like to produce photographs that others enjoy and find interesting. In the future, it would be nice to know that maybe I would be lucky enough to make my living through photography, or at least a supplemental income shooting events, portraits, and maybe some sports.

A local JC has a photography degree course that I am very interested in. But there are classes in the program that deals with film photography, darkroom, etc. Being in the digital age and with no plans of ever shooting seriously with film, these film classes are kind of a downer to me. I of course would prefer to focus primarily on digital photography, not some digital and some film. Is my attitude not where it should be?

Many will probably disagree with me but I'll offer you three reasons why taking a film based course is a good idea:

1) You'll learn to appreciate the value of getting it right in the camera without the benefit of being able to "fix it in post." You don't generally "spray and pray" with film.

2) Film (especially color transparency .. slides) will give you a better understanding of dynamic range. B&W negative film will give you a real tast of contrast and grain (and why grain is a tool and noise in digital is simply a byproduct.)

3) There is (to me anyway) magic in seeing the print come to life before your eyes instead of just popping up on screen or rolling out of a printer.

Now, I'll sit back and await the shredding that's sure to come. Good Luck with whatever you decide.

I am no pro, far from it. But I did really enjoy my time in the darkroom back in high school (didn't have digital to make me think otherwise way back then). And you never know, you might find you enjoy it. Working different, seeing things a little different, who knows what it will help your eye to see.

I actually might take some classes at the JC to get back in the darkroom, now that I think about it, might be fun. haha.

Personally, I'm not sure there is a benefit to getting a degree in photography. Many successful professional photogs don't have degrees. My personal feeling is that if you intern with a successful photog in your area, that you may learn more.

As for film and all that, I agree, do you really have to learn how to type on a typewriter before you learn wordprocessing program? Not to me. But I guess most if not all schools still require you to learn on film, so if you really want a degree in photography, I guess you'll have to suck it up and get through it or look for another program that doesn't have it.

I could write an essay about the benefits of going to school, but I've done it many times in other threads and feel like I'm talking to a bunch of walls, so I'll just say school (and darkroom photography) courses are awesome and beneficial and many ways as long as you're WILLING to learn and approach your photography from a different angle.

You will have to learn a lot of things that you probably wouldn't make yourself learn in a degree program. An associates degree is OK but if you are going to go a degree route get the associates and go on and get a B/A. I would also recommend spending some time working for a photographer for a while after you get your education. THe education will give you a strong foundation to build on if you apply yourself. And most schools start you with film for a reason as Jay pointed out. I wouldn't be working in the field that I now work in if not for a B/A in photography. But you will have to take film, color theory, 2 dimensional design and if you going to shoot wedding after you graduate will those courses help you maybe but if you get into an area where you have to work with designers and art directors you'll be glad you had to take them. You'd be surprised how many of those things you thought were useless and would have never study or learned on your own but come in handy everyday when your working.

madhatter04 wrote in post #10033271
I could write an essay about the benefits of going to school, but I've done it many times in other threads and feel like I'm talking to a bunch of walls, so I'll just say school (and darkroom photography) courses are awesome and beneficial and many ways as long as you're WILLING to learn and approach your photography from a different angle.

AMEN!!!!!

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #10032890
Many will probably disagree with me but I'll offer you three reasons why taking a film based course is a good idea:

1) You'll learn to appreciate the value of getting it right in the camera without the benefit of being able to "fix it in post." You don't generally "spray and pray" with film.

2) Film (especially color transparency .. slides) will give you a better understanding of dynamic range. B&W negative film will give you a real tast of contrast and grain (and why grain is a tool and noise in digital is simply a byproduct.)

3) There is (to me anyway) magic in seeing the print come to life before your eyes instead of just popping up on screen or rolling out of a printer.

Now, I'll sit back and await the shredding that's sure to come. Good Luck with whatever you decide.

Having been through the three film classes my college requires, I completely agree with this statement! The last one I took (which was just last quarter) was "View Camera Techniques." I stand a helluva better chance of shooting some 35mm film again than I ever do shooting more 4x5 film! (Though I did LOVE that class, and LOVE what I got from those negs....) Not only was it fun as hell to work with film coming from digital, it seriously made me think about what I was doing in the camera. The two biggest things I learned were better timing and much better composition. I still tell the story (though I'll keep it brief here) of going out the weekend before my first quarter and shooting 2400 frames of a band in 3 hours or so. After that quarter when I had some time to finally kill, I went out and shot the same band, and only shot 1100 frames in the same time frame. Not only did I cut the shots in half, I got much, much better shots.

I've actually found that it was mostly the other way around - the 100-level digital classes that almost drove me away from the program. Having already shot tens of thousands of frames and messing up the basic stuff taught me a lot personally. Trying to listen to those warnings for 6+ hours a week was mind-numbing. Now that I've gotten into the 200-level classes, I'm getting a whole lot more out of this program.

As for needing something like this, you probably don't need it to become a great photographer, but it can't hurt. I'm using this program (an associates in Digital Photography) to get started and finally get the degree I walked away from a few years ago (in Engineering; found out theory wasn't as much fun as practical application ). I figure I'll take this Associate's and head for something like Marketing or (*gulp*) business.

While I'm working on that, perhaps I'll make it big with photography and not need to finish. ....... Or, then again, maybe my photography can pay for itself, and maybe a vacation or two.

Formal and structured learning is something that many people find very advantagous to take and if you have the oppertunity it can certainly help you make a big start in the right direction.

Self learning can be a slower process as you have to set your own pace and your own target goals and whilst the internet and local camera clubs can give you a fountain of advice and info it does often lack a structure to it - things are more here and there than you get with a set teacher. Some people however really shine when self learing and can't learn in a classroom - the teacher is often a big part of this - but so to is the person and you have to really decide for yourself if a structured environment will help you or not.

As for the film parts - exposure, composition and the core of photography has really not changed - most of what has is the darkroom changing to a computer - and even there whilst there is "photoshop" you still have to get it right in the camera if you are going to be a photographer.

I kinda agree with what has already been said. But also find it only nostalgic. The same as we dont send somebody to learn keyboarding skills on a old typewriter. " But you have to think about what you are going to say before you type. Other wise you have to throw away the paper and start over".

They history of both are important and almost irrelivent at the same time.

Shooting film and silver haylide printing does get you to aprecieate the art of photography. ( not photography AS art. But the art of producing a photograph) But it is no longer necessary to make a good photographer. I have spent way to many hours in a wet darkroom. To the point the smell of dextol was all but perminant on my hands. I would say literaly half of my life douring my teens and 20's was spent in a darkroom. Of all the skill I had for darkroom work...precious little of it do I really put to use today. Concepts and "techniques" sure. But ones that carry over to digital. Somethings are still just as important! But they can be learned without ever setting foot in a darkroom.

In short I do see the value of learning darkroom work. But dont find it a must.

I will second what FlyingPhotog said ealier. I came from film in more than one format so I understand how getting it right in the camera is so important. Also, if you ask many of todays shooters what a Light Meter is they have a basic idea, but few can show you, or tell you how to use one.

I've heard many arguements over the years about film, versus digital. I can only say digital has been around longer than most of you realize, but film isn't a lost artform.

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #10032890
Many will probably disagree with me but I'll offer you three reasons why taking a film based course is a good idea:

1) You'll learn to appreciate the value of getting it right in the camera without the benefit of being able to "fix it in post." You don't generally "spray and pray" with film.

2) Film (especially color transparency .. slides) will give you a better understanding of dynamic range. B&W negative film will give you a real tast of contrast and grain (and why grain is a tool and noise in digital is simply a byproduct.)

3) There is (to me anyway) magic in seeing the print come to life before your eyes instead of just popping up on screen or rolling out of a printer.

I very much agree with these. I mainly use film, scanned or using a traditional print lab for b+w, and I can go a couple of months on a roll of film while I've read posts of new dSLR users that have fired off 1000 photos the first weekend they got their camera!

And do you really want to learn photography or rather photoshop tricks? Photography is more than chimping the back of your camera after every shot.

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #10032890
Many will probably disagree with me but I'll offer you three reasons why taking a film based course is a good idea:

1) You'll learn to appreciate the value of getting it right in the camera without the benefit of being able to "fix it in post." You don't generally "spray and pray" with film.

2) Film (especially color transparency .. slides) will give you a better understanding of dynamic range. B&W negative film will give you a real tast of contrast and grain (and why grain is a tool and noise in digital is simply a byproduct.)

3) There is (to me anyway) magic in seeing the print come to life before your eyes instead of just popping up on screen or rolling out of a printer.

Now, I'll sit back and await the shredding that's sure to come. Good Luck with whatever you decide.

Well said. Shooting film requires not only knowledge, but the confidence in your knowledge to leave an event without seeing your results and know you got the goods.

That being said, I have seen photographers improve much faster in the digital world. I am constantly amazed by the fantastic work posted on the forums.

If you really want to see how far we have come. Find some old film age Nat Geos and compare with the present. You will be surprised.

In addition to everything said already, it's good to have your way of thinking challenged!! You get nowhere by being stubborn and sticking to only one way of looking at art! I just got into the BFA Graphic Design program at my university (did photo as my electives) after a long and grueling portfolio review process and through all my classes, I've learned so much from being exposed to so many different people and learning from them and teaching them what I know. It's something you can't really get being "self taught' or posting on internet forums and I find this VERY advantageous.

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #10032890
Many will probably disagree with me but I'll offer you three reasons why taking a film based course is a good idea:

1) You'll learn to appreciate the value of getting it right in the camera without the benefit of being able to "fix it in post." You don't generally "spray and pray" with film.

2) Film (especially color transparency .. slides) will give you a better understanding of dynamic range. B&W negative film will give you a real tast of contrast and grain (and why grain is a tool and noise in digital is simply a byproduct.)

3) There is (to me anyway) magic in seeing the print come to life before your eyes instead of just popping up on screen or rolling out of a printer.

Now, I'll sit back and await the shredding that's sure to come. Good Luck with whatever you decide.

I loved my time in the photography class at my local JC!

1) Absolutely - The cost of film is expensive for me, so I tried to make every shot count.

2) I loved playing with the different ISO film ratings and seeing grain in my images and if it worked with the image I envisioned.

3) My most favorite part of class was the DARKROOM! I never missed a class day. I was in the darkroom on Saturdays from 10am - 4pm with the occasional breaks. It got to the point where I reserved a certain enlarger.
Watching the image just slowly come in on the paper is so different from having a print made and mailed to me. Just seeing the image from the enlarger felt different from seeing the image on the monitor.

It had/has a more personal feeling from the moment I put my negative in that little container to seeing the image slowly come in on the paper.

There's only 2 things that I regret.

1) $20 voucher for all that time vs a lab that charged me $10/hr. Is that the normal rate or did I get pay too much?

2) I should have worn safety goggles. Ease of mind even though I would have looked like a dork.
I was putting my paper/print into the developer, i leaned in too close. At the same time I leaned in, another student put his paper/print in and not gently. I got lightly splashed in the face with developer. I moved to the closest eye washer and went to the nurse's office. No damage. No apology from that student. Though it was my fault as well.

I loved it and it makes me sad that since I passed the class, I can't audit it.