Opinions? Profoto vs. Elinchrom

coalcliff wrote in post #10093414
Normal sync is 250th sec, so by hyper syncing at double the speed you reduce the amount of ambient coming in by half. Effectively giving you the equivalent of a 1200 watt shot, with a 600 watt pack.

Comprehend?

This is kinda true, but doesn't work for aperture

coalcliff wrote in post #10093414
Normal sync is 250th sec, so by hyper syncing at double the speed you reduce the amount of ambient coming in by half. Effectively giving you the equivalent of a 1200 watt shot, with a 600 watt pack.

Comprehend?

Your reducing the ambient light, not increasing the power of the flashoutput. So just because your able to shift the ratio dosent mean you get more power out of the pack...


You get the power of a 1200ws with hypersync in the studio as well then ?

What will the meter reading show at maximum power with hypersync on/off ?

Comprehend ?

coalcliff wrote in post #10093414
Normal sync is 250th sec, so by hyper syncing at double the speed you reduce the amount of ambient coming in by half. Effectively giving you the equivalent of a 1200 watt shot, with a 600 watt pack.

Comprehend?

Are you sure about that? Yes, you've double the shutter speed but you've also decrease the intensity of the strobe by exposing only half the frame at any given point in time, assuming a normal max sync speed is 1/250.

If the full frame were exposed at 1/500, then I would agree with you but that's not the case.

mickeyjuice wrote in post #10093443
This is kinda true, but doesn't work for aperture

doesn't work for focus setting either

MR do little wrote in post #10093481
Your reducing the ambient light, not increasing the power of the flashoutput. So just because your able to shift the ratio dosent mean you get more power out of the pack...


You get the power of a 1200ws with hypersync in the studio as well then ?

What will the meter reading show at maximum power with hypersync on/off ?

Comprehend ?

Ok, I should explain,

J Dear, who started this and ran away to actually shoot something rather than argue on the internet, is mainly a location shooter, does "panty wetting" wedding work!

So my comments were directed at shooting outside in the daylight, not studio .

PacAce wrote in post #10093517
Are you sure about that? Yes, you've double the shutter speed but you've also decrease the intensity of the strobe by exposing only half the frame at any given point in time, assuming a normal max sync speed is 1/250.

If the full frame were exposed at 1/500, then I would agree with you but that's not the case.

With the 7b pack the flash duration is 1300th of a sec at full power and faster a lower power, so the flash duration doesn't come into the equation. The way the hypersync works is different to the hi speed canon system, which effectively is a high speed strobe whilst the shutter is open from curtain to curtain.

Hypersync is basically a system which tells the flash to fire earlier than normal allowing faster shutter speeds without the result of lost flash power across the exposure.

See Rob Galbraith's explanation below

" This HyperSync mode is most useful when you're trying to minimise ambient light and maximise strobe efficiency at the same time. Prior to HyperSync, this task was most easily accomplished by running a wire between camera and strobe, because the delay associated with any wireless flash trigger meant switching to a slower shutter speed to avoid a black band invading the base of the frame. By signalling the flash to fire a bit ahead of when the camera normally would on its own, HyperSync allows for a sync speed that is both higher than previous wireless trigger devices and higher than a wired connection too. " from http://www.robgalbrait​h.com ….asp?cid=7-9884-9903-9906

coalcliff wrote in post #10093986
doesn't work for focus setting either

Ok, I should explain,

J Dear, who started this and ran away to actually shoot something rather than argue on the internet, is mainly a location shooter, does "panty wetting" wedding work!

So my comments were directed at shooting outside in the daylight, not studio .

Yes i figured as much, without your little "comprehend" comment at the end of your "explanation" i probably wouldnt care, now i couldnt resist...

Still regardless if your in the studio or outdoors, the flash power output is NOT changed from 600ws to 1200ws, the ambient light however is affected by the faster shutter speed thus the ratio between ambient and flash is changed.

I can't argue with a guy from the home of Profoto!

You are correct Paul.

And the hypersync provides a method to achieve daytime location shots with a 600watt system that previously you needed a 1200 watt system.
The clever bunnies at Pocket Wizard cannot actually turn a 600 watt system into a 1200 watt system.

coalcliff wrote in post #10094085
I can't argue with a guy from the home of Profoto!

You are correct Paul.

And the hypersync provides a method to achieve daytime location shots with a 600watt system that previously you needed a 1200 watt system.
The clever bunnies at Pocket Wizard cannot actually turn a 600 watt system into a 1200 watt system.

Oh but you can, and im sure in many isntances you would shut me up.

Yes hypersync really made it easier , its however still a very "new" technology and it seems PW learn as they go along if we should judge by their release of the new PW's.

Also there are other factors then just the trigger playing in, such as flash duration, and camera brand/model which tend to make this a trial/error experience for many users.

I have no plans in investing in the new PW's at this time as the location gear i use have in general quite short flash duration and from what iv read there isnt much sucess with higher shutter speeds with gear i use.

Im not limited by power since i use the Ranger RX, what limits me is diffraction, thus i plan on using ND filters this summer or even buy a STF lens.

coalcliff wrote in post #10093986
With the 7b pack the flash duration is 1300th of a sec at full power and faster a lower power, so the flash duration doesn't come into the equation. The way the hypersync works is different to the hi speed canon system, which effectively is a high speed strobe whilst the shutter is open from curtain to curtain.

Hypersync is basically a system which tells the flash to fire earlier than normal allowing faster shutter speeds without the result of lost flash power across the exposure.

See Rob Galbraith's explanation below

" This HyperSync mode is most useful when you're trying to minimise ambient light and maximise strobe efficiency at the same time. Prior to HyperSync, this task was most easily accomplished by running a wire between camera and strobe, because the delay associated with any wireless flash trigger meant switching to a slower shutter speed to avoid a black band invading the base of the frame. By signalling the flash to fire a bit ahead of when the camera normally would on its own, HyperSync allows for a sync speed that is both higher than previous wireless trigger devices and higher than a wired connection too. " from http://www.robgalbrait​h.com ….asp?cid=7-9884-9903-9906

I suggest you read through Rob's article in its entirety and try to understand how HyperSync works and you'll (hopefully) see what I was referring to about the frame not being totally exposed at a shutter speed of 1/500 and why an exposure at 1/500 is not utilizing the full output of the strobe. Pay particular attention to the oscilloscope graph showing the output curve of the strobe versus time.

mumbles wrote in post #10090409
I believe it's the AIR system.

I absolutely love the AIR system. I've been on it for about 8 months now and have had honestly no issues with it. I've shot probably 5,000 photos over AIR without a single failure to fire (really).

It's great to be able to control lights scattered all over a scene in 1/10th stop increments from your camera. Not only that, but I can individually turn heads on/off, turn modeling lamps on/off, etc. This is great when I am running off a Vagabond I can quickly turn the modeling lamp on to check something, then switch if off.

I like to mount lights on poles 20ft up to simulate things like street lights, moonlight, etc. So being able to have complete control of these lights is critical.

The Pocket Wizards seem archaic in comparison.

mumbles wrote in post #10089422
I think Elinchrom outnumbers Profoto people here. Couple other things to consider is triggering types and consistency of triggering. People regularly complain abut Profoto triggers. I've never used them myself, but i've read it many times.

I have an AS speed. It's a fantastic pack and we take it everywhere. We plan to pickup a Quadra by years end as well.

Profoto Acute R, Compact R and the D4R all use Pocket Wizard modules , and they are super reliable.

JDubya wrote in post #10088951
I only have experience with Broncolor so I'd like some opinions. I'm looking to get a power pack and two heads, NO monolights. I want something that can be used while plugged into standard household power to charge as well as on-location.

For Elinchrom I have my eye on the Ranger RX Speed AS unit with two A heads.

For Profoto I was looking at the Acute2R 1200 Pro Value Pack (pack with two heads and a case).

I like how the Profoto has a handle and a built in PowketWizard but I like how the Elinchrom is meant to handle the outdoors (rubber caps and whatnot). The Elinchrom also has a much faster flash duration, which could come in handy. Profoto has a two-year warranty whereas Elinchrom has only a one-year.

So I'm on the fence. What would you recommend?

If you need a profoto unit that can be used both in the studio and in location check out the Profoto 7b, I have never been much of a fan of Profoto gear but the 7b is a really, really, really great location pack, super rugged, super consistent, great t.1 speeds, lots of pops per battery, you can buy an accesory to use it with the AC mains too, etc. The Elinchrom Ranger RX is a really fine piece of equipment and it is worth every penny but IMHO the 7b is a really outstanding piece of equipment for a location shooter.

Dunno, heard it third party. I wasn't there to see the failure. But Neil van Niekerk was experiencing the issues.

mumbles wrote in post #10097462
Dunno, heard it third party. I wasn't there to see the failure. But Neil van Niekerk was experiencing the issues.

I worked for another photographer before he has a D4r 2400ws and a 7b, the PW module in the D4r functions without a hitch with a PW plus II on the camera, and the 7B didn´t presented any kind of problem with two Plus II (one on the camera and one on the pack).

I know people who use the Compact R and they haven´t found any problem neither.

Remember that the AIR remote system (included in the 8A, B3, B2 600 Air and D1)of profoto isn´t the same as the PW system, the non AIR gear (older Acute, Compact and D4 with only an extra "R" designation) all use pocket wizard II.

Good stuff, guys.

Since I'd like to get two heads, that almost doubles the cost of going with Profoto since I'd need two packs. How often do you guys find you need more than 600ws?

I've got the Ranger RX Speed AS, as well as 4 600RX's, and while I really like them....I'd hop on profoto in a second if I could afford the cost difference (wife is in school full time, so that'd be too tough to swing right now).

The two main reasons I'd go with profoto are:

1) quick repair turnaround. Elinchrom makes wonderful gear, but my experience with manfrotto service is less than speedy, even with one of the service guys knowing the urgency of my repair needs (working pro). I've heard one of the main reasons you don't find more big rental shops renting out elinchrom gear is purely their slow turnaround in the repair/warranty department.

2) zoom reflectors. damn simple, but so incredible. If for nothing else, purely for focusing/defocusing light when used as a background light. Can drastically change lighting qualities in hard light as well. love, love, love this feature....really makes a simple reflector one of the most versatile tools in the kit.

All that said, there's a hell of a pricetag attached to this gear. While I think profotos lights and reflectors are special, I've never been overly impressed by their softboxes/other modifiers. It's not that they're bad....they just don't seem to have all that many creative shapes/sizes, and for that price I'd rather own a plume or chimera box (much nicer build quality). I am a huge believer in some of elinchrom's modifers (rotalux system makes location work a breeze, deep throat is amazing, el Octa is equally amazing, etc), but if you do decide to go with profoto, you can buy an elinchrom adapter that will allow you to use elinchroms wonderful (and significantly cheaper) softboxes.

Regarding your question of getting 2 packs with profoto....I feel pretty strongly (however some would disagree) that each light deserves it's own ranger pack. While you can certainly plug two into one pack, the short cable length will deter creative placement and adding an extension cable is both expensive (more than $200) and will eat up some of the output from the head on the extension cable. If you can swing it, 2 ranger packs, 2 lights.

Lastly, I find 600 watts is more than enough for almost all in-studio situations...but when shooting in open daylight/at sunrise with sun behind the subject, I find the extra power that my ranger gives me (1200 watts) is very nice to have....especially when using a modifier or when the light isn't close to the subject.