Argh....Closing Early on Fridays

MichaelBernard wrote in post #10195816
If you aren't allowed to do commerce 'as a business' on the Sabbath, does this not include web commerce?

I've often wondered the same thing. If the website logs an order on the Sabbath or any holy day, wouldn't that be "doing business" in both spirit and letter?

While being merely a lowly goy myself, I'm truly interested in Judaism and it's intricacies (such as this.)

I know some Jewish people who hire out "Shabbos goys" (gentiles who come over on the sabbath and/or holy days) to come over and turn on lights, answer the phone, etc. If I were going to go that far to break the spirit of the rule without breaking the letter, I'd probably just answer the phone myself, but hey, whatever.

culturejam wrote in post #10196348
I've often wondered the same thing. If the website logs an order on the Sabbath or any holy day, wouldn't that be "doing business" in both spirit and letter?

While being merely a lowly goy myself, I'm truly interested in Judaism and it's intricacies (such as this.)

I know some Jewish people who hire out "Shabbos goys" (gentiles who come over on the sabbath and/or holy days) to come over and turn on lights, answer the phone, etc. If I were going to go that far to break the spirit of the rule without breaking the letter, I'd probably just answer the phone myself, but hey, whatever.

x2 Most of the Jewish folks I know just have non-Jews do the work for them, which sparked my question in the first place. I'm honestly just fascinated by the application of this to business.

MichaelBernard wrote in post #10195816
If you aren't allowed to do commerce 'as a business' on the Sabbath, does this not include web commerce?

I would guess 1 of 2 things:
1. B&H contracts out the website: software development, servers, data center.. etc. all done by a third party. Just like any vendor, the third party would not be subject to the Jewish Law.

2. Jewish people run refrigerators in their home on the sabbath.. they just can't turn it on or off or in any way operate the machine. They can open and close the door and place items in it and take things out, but many of them have customized refrigerators that do not turn on or off the light or compressor when the door is opened or closed. In this way, they don't "do work" when they use the refrigerator; even though the refrigerator continues to chug away. I would guess that a computer web server might work like a refrigerator: as long as they don't touch it, it can churn away. They are not actually doing any commerce by just by having orders queue up in the machine, as long as they don't process those orders. Jewish law is very complex, I don't pretend to understand it.

^^

And in Israel, they have "Sabbath elevators" that automatically stop at EVER floor during the sabbath, so you don't have to PUSH anything to go up (or down)

I'm Reform, so I'm fairly liberal in my observances.

hairy_moth wrote in post #10196572
I would guess 1 of 2 things:
1. B&H contracts out the website: software development, servers, data center.. etc. all done by a third party. Just like any vendor, the third party would not be subject to the Jewish Law.

Yea, but the company is still doing the commerce, regardless of whether or not the website is managed on the weekend by a 3rd party. This is what confused me. I suppose it's like my Orthodox neighbors asking us to light their stove and yes even cigs for them (happens in Bensonhurst every week). Again I am happy and thankful to all for the clarification.

egordon99 wrote in post #10196590
^^

And in Israel, they have "Sabbath elevators" that automatically stop at EVER floor during the sabbath, so you don't have to PUSH anything to go up (or down)

I'm Reform, so I'm fairly liberal in my observances.

They have those here as well in many hospitals.

henryp wrote in post #10195655
Funny you should say that. On the morning of Saturday, Sept 13, 2003, a fire broke out in our offices which were then directly above the retail store. A Manhattan police officer who knew our store manager's name and the general neighborhood where he lives drove from Manhattan to that section of Brooklyn and stopped Hasidic men on the sidewalk until he was able to locate "Eli from B&H." Eli walked to our COO's home and the two walked from there back to the store location and watched while the NYFD battled the blaze. Neither was able to lift a finger to help. They could not unlock a door or disable a burglar alarm. I am sure that had loss of life been imminent, they'd have been released to act, but loss or property did not give them license to assist.

I know the damage would have been less had they broken the Sabbath, but like any Sabbath-observant Jew, they chose fealty to their Deity above materiel property. The NYFD and NYPD performed above-and-beyond and subsequently received our most profound and sincere expressions of gratitude and respect.

Finally ive answered my own questions! There happens to be a newstand right in front of B&H. It has pictures up of it burned down and i always wondered when it happened, how it happened, and why would they put pictures up of it. This has answered the questions ive always had when standing in front of that newstand!

MichaelBernard wrote in post #10196669
Yea, but the company is still doing the commerce, regardless of whether or not the website is managed on the weekend by a 3rd party. This is what confused me.

I agree. The company is entering into business deals, plain and simple.

Further, it would be trivial to set up a CRON job or some other type of script to disable the checkout process between certain hours on certain days. You could even have it adjust itself for the seasonal change in hours of daylight.

Having the web site up and running is just like have a display window in a retail store, so no foul there. But running credit cards or taking paypal transfers seems like a business activity to me.

I mean, I don't care either way, and I'm certainly not bothered by collecting checks on Friday night. Just curious about this one in particular.

suecassidy wrote in post #10180921
ACtually, as a gentile myself, I always found B&H shutting down on the sabbath and holy days to be one of the few remaining institutions whose owners "walk the walk" in respect to their faith. They are choosing to honor their faith by following it despite financial loss, and I think that is great. Yes, they could hire gentiles to work those extra hours, but they chose to follow the INTENT of their religious laws, not the just follow the letter of the religious law. Staying open would still have their "business" working, although their jewish employees are not. I have even more respect for them because of their stand on the issue, despite the pressure from their customers. I am willing to wait until they open again after the Sabbath, happily. I know it is frustrating for you, Michael, but....

This. Times... infinity.

Yeah, there have been a couple times their policies were inconvenient for me, but I got over it. Like you, I greatly respect them for "walking the walk", because far too few people only give lip service to their stated beliefs anymore.

spkerer wrote in post #10181901
I too am of the crowd that appreciates them "walking the walk" and not just talking the talk. I've been inconvenienced by their closings, but I think it's good to sometimes exercise restraint in our "immediate gratification" wants.

A couple times they have saved me money. By the time they opened my "spending fever" had passed.

hairy_moth wrote in post #10182096
I did not photograph it though, because the Amish prefer not to be photographed; and I respect that.
(The postcards from Lancaster are all of actors in Amish garb.).

Really? I did not know either of those. I've always wanted to visit the Amish country, and will keep that in mind.

My guess (I am not religious or too clued up on the Jewish faith so might be well off) would be that although the computer logs the order and processes the card, there is no contract until the order is actually fulfilled. Taking the order is only an automated process, the work is in the fulfillment of that order. Therefore the business does effectively cease during the sabbath.

I am quite sure that the owners of both shops have had considerable discussions on the finer points of this with their rabbi and have recieved full clearance.

Speaking of the Sabbath, Dio died today. How sad.

neilwood32 wrote in post #10197690
My guess (I am not religious or too clued up on the Jewish faith so might be well off) would be that although the computer logs the order and processes the card, there is no contract until the order is actually fulfilled. Taking the order is only an automated process, the work is in the fulfillment of that order. Therefore the business does effectively cease during the sabbath.

Yea but the key word was doing business, not work. Taking someone's order is doing business, whether you fill it then or later. I suppose like all things it's a matter of perspective eh?

MichaelBernard wrote in post #10201475
Yea but the key word was doing business, not work. Taking someone's order is doing business, whether you fill it then or later. I suppose like all things it's a matter of perspective eh?

If you think of it another way, it could treated in the same way as postal orders in the past. They can stack up in the mailbox as long as they want but until approved and processed, they aren't doing business!

I am quite sure that they will have checked with thier Rabbi's etc to ensure compliance and recieved full clearance.

MichaelBernard wrote in post #10195816
Well I appreciate the corrections Henry, but I have another question. If you aren't allowed to do commerce 'as a business' on the Sabbath, does this not include web commerce? I know the site has a warning about the order not going out right away, but I've never seen it prevent someone from placing it.

There are many rules and many interpretations of those rules so I cannot say any of this is immutable. Our site takes your payment when the order is submitted, so it's considered commerce, which is forbidden on the Sabbath and holidays with Sabbath-like rules. If our site took your order but held it in a pending file and didn't actually process the payment until Sabbath was over I presume it would be possible to interpret this as acceptable, but I am not an expert on this by any means.

Our site lets you do everything 24/7/365 except submit a paid order on the Sabbath and holidays with Sabbath-like rules ( like Shavuos which is this week, Wed & Thur).

vipergts831 wrote in post #10196757
There happens to be a newstand right in front of B&H. It has pictures up of it burned down and i always wondered when it happened, how it happened, and why would they put pictures up of it. This has answered the questions ive always had when standing in front of that newstand!

The newstand is on the north-east corner of 9th Ave & W 34th St. The pictures are not the fire I mentioned in an earlier post. Those are pictures of the newsstand that used to be where this one how stands. It was hit late one night by a speeding car and the pics are of the resulting damage and of our guys helping clean up the mess for the stand owner, and because we didn't want this mess on the corner. Fortunately the collision took place late at night. The newsstand and our store were closed and there were no pedestrians.