Rookie with flash question

I'm new to the forum and have been reading and absorbing as much information as I can for the last month or so since I've joined. I can't believe how fortunate I am to be able to gather such amazing photography advice in one place, especially one that specializes in Canon gear. I generally would rather read the posts of others than jump in with rookie questions, and I've seemed to pick up a great deal already, by doing just that.

I'm very new to photography and have no studio gear yet, but I'm primarily interested in portrait and someday, studio photography. I bought the 430 EXII a month or so ago, thinking it would be a sufficient starting point for on camera flash. Now that I've spent more time reading thru the forums here, I've realized that the 580 seems to be much preferred ( it seems) in most situations.

If I were to buy a 580EXII, is there a general rule I should follow as far as which flash to use where? I will likely buy some lightboxes and stands etc sooner or later, and I just am trying to figure out wether I wasted some money buying the 430, when two 580's would have been (perhaps) infinitely more flexible.

I thought I had read some contradictory information on here about the 430EXII, I'm under the understanding that it can function as a master. I'd assume that it would be better to have a more powerful flash being used OCF? I'm not looking for absolutes, since I don't think any exist. I just wonder how limited I might be by starting with the 430, ie, is a 430 plus a 580 a good enough combo to be flexible, or would two 580's really be a great deal more flexible.

Thank you to anyone willing to read all of this and share some wisdom.

They can be combined, of course. But since they aren't identical, you have to think a bit about which to go where, so you don't put the weakest flash where you need the most power.

Traditionally, when using two flashes for portrait, you'd want a key flash somewhere to one of the sides, and then a fill flash near/on the camera. The key should be stronger than the fill, but since only the 580 EX II can be the master, it ends up on the camera, with the weaker 430 EX II out there tasked to do most of the job.

The built-in flash control of the 7D has to some extent changed this, since you can put both of them away from the camera, if you like.

All my flashes are of the same type (580 EX II), to avoid having to do judgements like this one.

I didn't have the foresight to consider buying the 580EX/EXII first either. Based upon cost I started off with a 430EX first and then added a 580EXII. At the beginning, I didn't even know effective a flash could be. Although the 430EX is the weaker flash, it still works as an OCF. I can probably get my brother-in-laws unsed 580EXII as another flash later and then use the 430EX as the background light.

In addition to this site, you should check out strobist and Planet Niel for off camera like on camera flash.

If the 430 can't function as a master, then that will limit me more I suppose.

You would be money ahead to purchase radio triggers instead of relying on the canon wireless system. The canon system is fine but it does have its shortcomings with its reliance on visible light which shortens its range, and inconsistent performance outside in bright light. While it allows you to retain ETTL manual off camera flash is so simple and in some cases better as you get more consistent performance shot to shot. For the cost of another speedlite to use as a master you could buy two manual flashes, stands, triggers, umbrelllas, brackets and still have some cash left over.

See, that's where my lack of knowledge is saved. I figured I'd buy some radio poppers or something of the like, but I figured the flashes that went into the umbrellas would cost the same or close to Speedlights. Thinking that, I assumed it would be best to stick with units that were obviously compatible.

I thought outside of the realm of expensive strobe lights or other heavy cumbersome lighting equipment, my only option was either Canon ETTL flashes, or Metz, etc. and the costs weren't that different.

I tend to try to stick to the adage of scrimp elsewhere if necessary, but buy the best equipment you can ( I hate buyers remorse and upgrade-itis) afford.

Any tips on particular brands?

Thanks again!

Chips wrote in post #10241881
See, that's where my lack of knowledge is saved. I figured I'd buy some radio poppers or something of the like, but I figured the flashes that went into the umbrellas would cost the same or close to Speedlights. Thinking that, I assumed it would be best to stick with units that were obviously compatible.


Any tips on particular brands?

Thanks again!

Just to be clear the options I was talking about were manual only not ETTL. ETTL is great when your exposure is likely to change from shot to shot, but for OCF work consistency of output is more desirable. It only takes a couple of outings to learn the manual system so for most of us the lack of ETTL isnt a huge concern.

I would suggest getting two of the YN 460II Flashes for $50 or so each on ebay. B&H photo has a set with two stands, swivel brackets, and umbrella's for $99. The RF-602 radio triggers are highly regarded here (I use cybersync's) and you can find them on ebay for around $40 or so, get a kit with two receivers.

I understand your desire to get name brand lights, but all the above comes in about the cost of another 430exII, and well under the cost of a 580exII ($400).

I think I understand the concept, but I don't know how to shoot manual. I usually don't shoot in a static situation with my kids moving all over the place. So for me right now, run and gun ETTL works. Going the manual route with off brand flashes is definitely cheaper.

ocjohn wrote in post #10243078
I think I understand the concept, but I don't know how to shoot manual. I usually don't shoot in a static situation with my kids moving all over the place. So for me right now, run and gun ETTL works. Going the manual route with off brand flashes is definitely cheaper.

ETTL all the way for on camera, but if your kids are moving that much then off camera isnt an option anyway.

Thank you! That is a ton of help!

I've been holding a slave in my left hand, so it is off camera, although with limited placement. I should try some static test with a lightstand to see what I'm missing in terms of how the light looks with more varied placement.

ocjohn wrote in post #10243758
I've been holding a slave in my left hand, so it is off camera, although with limited placement. I should try some static test with a lightstand to see what I'm missing in terms of how the light looks with more varied placement.

Its more than just placement. Getting it off camera allows for using an umbrella or softbox which radically improves the quality of light. Not really anything you can do handheld, or at least done well handheld.