Glamour comments!

No, but i see how narrow sighted you are. I guess you are one of those who can't see past the model.

This is a worthwhile discussion. Let's not drag it down by overreacting to an unpopular opinion. It's just an opinion.

Thanks,

Tom

I agree with the poster of this thread. I myself have been known to make complimentary remarks regarding the appearance of models but I have to say that some of the remarks I've seen by others have caused me to whince.

The fact is though that, no matter how much some of us dislike such remarks, they do reflect the mentality of a percentage of the members here and are, within that context, honest. I have limited experience of both glamour / nude photography and life drawing but I wouldn't post any of my pictures on the Glamout Forum simply for the reason that I've too much respect for the models to allow their images to be subjected to the sort of laddish remarks posted on a thread featuring a native American woman. As for the headline "on her hnees" I had to look twice just to make sure my eyes weren't deceiving me.

Perhaps it is a narrow-minded attitude. But then, if a title is supposed to describe the contents, and one has some experience within the forum reading some rather nasty and vile commentary on a model, it does not create an interest in me to go see some woman "on her knees." As a woman, that title is very offensive to me, frankly, and is indicative of how women are treated by some men, and by that forum in general. Knowing it was done by CharlesU doesn't help me want to look at it; he takes some amazing shots, but there is precious little I can learn about photography from it, because the discussion is simply "wow..." or "I like her {add comment here}."

Instead, what I learn from it is that men (mostly) want to see a woman on her knees. And that's a bother to me. Narrow minded? Maybe. But maybe it's also because I have looked at that forum in the past, and know what to expect.

Do you think so? I'm not sure. I think it's an idealized version of what women are, but I also don't think it's solely to establish a sexual response in males. Look at Audrey Hepburn. Or Grace Kelly. Elegance, sex appeal (by the tons!!!!!!) and beauty. Their good qualities were completely emphasised, but they were not naked, on their knees, or sticking a pinky in their mouth emulating either 'innocence' or sexual activity; and I doubt anyone came away from those shots thinking "man, I'd like to do her on the kitchen table RIGHT NOW!!!"

What people are missing is the power of a good glam shot to make women consider what they can do to create that appeal themselves...there are some women who prefer to look at themselves as sexual objects, but the vast majority of them don't. But elegant? Classy? Gracious? All of us have a part where that appeals to our femininity, and want to emulate that (to some extent). We don't want for our men to see us as "on our knees" (at least, I dearly hope not; at least not in public...and not only as that...).

Then post in a soft core porn forum, where comments about her breasts are appreciated...and one does not go into the forum looking for advice on how to set up a set to create a shot.

Perhaps that's because there isn't any real crit to look at and learn from in that forum? Instead, locker-room behavior encourages more locker room behavior...

As for training, it doesn't take any training to ask the photographer where his lights were; why he chose that particular angle/background rather than another one; what he cropped and why; what his post was. It does take looking past a set of chi-chis, though, and looking at the shot as a whole. And that doesn't take training, it takes interest in photography as an art.

And as for crit, why don't you make an effort to learn about it, and then be able to provide some which is useful, rather than the typical comment made of "she's not pretty" or "is that a man?"

Really? I can take a shot of a pair of chi-chis, and post them...would that be art? Would that do anything other than pander to childish behavior? Would it do a dratted thing other than make some men drool? That's not making a model look sexy; that's something other than that.

You're allowed an opinion. Mine was asked for (as a woman on these forums) and thus provided.

I am far from a fuddy-duddy. I have written porn, and sold it for a decent sum. But that's far different from the general goal of my writing, and is done with specific intent to stimulate men. I have yet to have anyone actually crit any of my porn other than the occasional letter from someone telling me the effect it had...which is immediately trashed, btw. There was not (and I doubt there ever will be) a commentary on my writing style, nor a comment on how I learned it.

If the specific purpose of some photography is to stimulate a physical response in men, then it is, imho, soft porn. If it is to highlight a woman's appeal, that is something entirely different. A fine line? Sure enough, judging by how many cross it without realizing it.

And if that is not the case, I wonder why the occasional male photo is slammed with such regularity as to make me completely understand that it's not about photography, but rather the subject and her sex appeal. That it's a men's forum, and not really about photography but about showcasing a pretty woman in sexual attitudes?

Perhaps I protest too much. Or perhaps I am a woman who has a strong opinion about something, and not hesitant to share it when it's been asked for.

For me, I'd love to see the forum get to a point where there is some learning taking place, some sharing of techniques, some discussion about the shot itself, rather than the model's suitability. I'd like to see some really outstanding shots of the nude body, male or female. And I'd like to see some respect shown the models, as well...and until that happens, my choice is to not visit the forum with any regularity.

And no, I'm not advocating any form of censorship.

And yes, I realize I am completely alienating myself from those who have taken this personally.

Best-
Noni

Touche'
I'm not closed-minded, I'm just arrogantly opinionated!

Seriously, I may some day learn to appreciate landscape photography better (though I rather doubt it, since I haven't learned to appreciate Rap music, Gershwin, Picasso or Hemmingway), in the mean time, I won't complain about the way others discuss an art form that doesn't interest me.

Really now. Is it offensive when a woman gets on her knees to tie a child's shoe laces? To scrub a floor? To open the bottom drawer in the file cabinet in her lavishly-decorated corner office in the executive suite? Is it more offensive when a woman does these things than when a man does them? Would you be offended by a photograph entitled "Man on his knees"?

Ironically, this thread, "Shauna on her knees" https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=88347 has generated seven responses so far, at least one of them by a woman. Most of the comments are related to the lighting, her tatoo, and the background. It might be educational for someone interested in glamour work. Pity you're missing it because of preconceptions.

In People forum? Nope, not at all. But in a sexually oriented forum, wherein the entire focus is sexuality, apparently, yes, it is. To me. I'm allowed an opinion, aren't I? I'm allowed to have thoughts about things, aren't I? And yes, a man on his knees in a sexual position would not garner my interest either.

Right. Lots of comments on airbrushing her tat and various other comments. One woman commenting does not negate my opinion...if so, there are many men on this thread whose comments would negate yours. I've read the thread, my friend. Assuming I haven't - well, that's your assumption, isn't it?

Look, it's pointless to be arguing with you. My opinion stands...as does yours. You're welcome to have your opinion, no matter what it is, as am I. I expressed an opinion, a strong one, a female perspective as requested by the OP, and if that's a bother to you, that's fine...no skin off my nose, as it were.

If you'd like to go more indepth, feel free to pm me...

Best-
Noni

Some of my thoughts.
I have not posted any images to the Glamour/Nude forum despite the fact that I might appreciate the help with my lighting technique usually because of subject matter. Becuase I post so few I kind of feel it is mostly unfair of me to make comments so don't visit that forum often (that and that particular forum never at work).

In my photos I take on a profesional basis, I am trying for two competing things at once.
Artistic
and
Erotic
While they are not mutually exclusive they are very hard to get together, except on a rare basis. It is because I am trying for the erotic that I haven't posted. Although I do have some artistic shots that would probably be acceptable they are still usually at least partialy nudes. I do post a select number to my own web site, but had felt that it was not proper to post most of them to this site. note that only a small percentage of the shots during a session are an actual attempt at this, but that is the ultimate goal of the photo session to get a small number of photos that are both artistic and erotic at the same time. [my non-professional sessions are for the fun of it with completely different goals)

I am kind of two minds based on the discussions in this thread. One would be that apparently some of the photos would be acceptable. The other is that apparently we have some immature folks visiting that forum, so I really shouldn't even then.

being male and hetrosexual I tend to look at glamour/nude pictures and the first thing I see is the model and how they look; I personally think this is natural. However, unless the photo was put there just to look at the model such as in an adult mag or web site, I tend to go beyond that very quickly and look at the style and quality of the photograph.
Since the gallery forums are for critique and comment as to the photographic style it is very inappropriate in my mind to say anything other then "nice looking model", "lucky Photographer" or "I'm jealous" and then continue commenting on the photograph itself.
If there is a desire from the photographer for comments on the pose/posture of the model herself then some related comments are acceptable.

On the topic of males, I personally skip right to the style of the photograph step, but eventually I will come back and think if gay men or ladies would appreciate this model in this photograph as represented. I would do this because in my goal of artistic and erotic I have a desire to be good enough that if I ever photograph a male and female together I want it to appeal to all sides of the line. I should mention that over the past few years I have had the opportunity to photograph some males in various situations and one of my greatist artistic challenge was trying to make a TS look feminine in the early stage of the change from male to female. Now being a confirmed Het Male, THAT is a difficult challenge trust me. But at the same time I like the photographic challenge it offered. BTW it is a whole lot easier making a female look male then a male look female.

Just my opinion and possibly too much information,

This thread has opened a discussion with a few layers to it.. not the least of which is the source and effect of the comments made reagrding the models.. as opposed to the comments themselves.

ie: Sexism.

Bigotry of any form is ugly to many of us,. sexism no less so than rascism, classism, or religious hatred.

The irony is that in a thread where the door to discuss the concerns of sexism, as presented in the reply comments found on this forum, has resulted in some over the line sexist comments .....

Let's please limit ourselves to posting our own feelings and opinions, and not allow this to continue to degenerate into cross examination or challenge other's..

...at the very least.. let's refrain from stating that others should shut up?

I made that assumption based on this statement:

I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Well my post certainly generated some discussion and the topic is fairly contentious making it hard not to have 'raised voices'. I am interested in a number of areas in photography and find photographing people a real challenge, which leads me to want to explore. My attitude to female nudes is more about my desire to communicate a strong female presence, which is so rarely communicated. The problem of objectification of women is widespread and most men probably don't have any idea how they participate and foster that view. I am in a relationship with a strong woman and I work with the same kind of women. I feel that is an advantage as my relationship with them is on an equal footing. I guess a lot of men are not in the position of living and working with educated, independent women.....maybe they do but don't recognise it. I find myself wondering now whether it is possible for 'artistic nude' to have a separate forum.......moderators​?
Roger.

Nope, no apology needed, and not to worry. I figured (before I answered originally) that if I was going to use that as an example, I'd best look at it, at least. LOL...

Here is my issue, in a nutshell. Most of the shots in that forum are done specifically to titillate and stimulate a man. Because of that, there's an objectification of women that occurs, and a disengagement between the viewer and the photo subject. The photo becomes an object, when it's a person there.

Effective photography is designed to produce a response. I put up a photo of a little girl, and it was designed to make people look at it. It was effective, and I manipulated my viewers to see things my way. The problem, then, with so-and-so on their knees, is that a person manipulates the viewer towards a certain thing; in this case, for me, it was the subjugation of women in a public forum.

Someone back earlier in the thread say that men have trouble looking past a pair of breasts. I don't believe that's accurate. I give men more credit than that. Sure, there will be the typical response but that does not need to be posted; rest assured that both the subject and the photographer knows the breasts are great, small, perfect or whatever.

There is a quiet, almost sideways sort of opinion that a person will take away from shots like that, and it is not always complimentary to a woman. That's what bothers me, maybe. What people think of the person who lays underneath the body. Women are not objects, and it bothers me a lot to see that attitude so blatantly on display in there. I see precious little education, and instead see oogling.

I am a heterosexual female, and think that the human form - in all it's permutations and complexities is utterly amazing. Erotic art can be done in some amazing, unique ways. The shots that capture me (and I co-produced a calendar of nude and semi nude women, remember) and that move past the concept of overly made up, barely legal "flesh" are those with different lighting, different backgrounds, different subjects. One of my favorite shots from the calendar is a woman who is getting water poured over her while she stands in the desert...there is a sultry, explosive quality about that shot because of the light, the water against the desert and against her, and the angles of her shoulder, arm and jaw, not because she was naked (she wasn't). And another shot which stole viewers breath was a black and white shot that showed a perfect pair of breasts with arms crossed, half body (navel to jaw) but once you looked at it closely, you saw the scars from the breast cancer surgery she had and realized those were not "real" breasts. (Yes, I directed the shoot, and the photographers were brilliant in taking what I had in my head and getting it out there; it was collaborative work, and one of the most powerful, moving
things I've ever participated in). That's erotic art; that's art with a message. That's not soft core porn...and that's not what I see in the forum here.

I'd dearly love to be able to go to the forum and not feel repelled by the commentary there. I'd love to go into that forum, and post a question on lighting, aperture, posing, and post processing. As it stands, though, I vote with my feet, and with my mouse. I'd love to take some shots, and be able to put them into the forum for crit and not be concerned that someone will get hung up on the prettiness of the model, or the perfection of their skin. I'd love to take shots of men, and post those...but as it stands right now, that's probably not going to happen because of the responses people give. I won't subject myself or anyone modeling for me to that sort of humiliation.

And on an entirely different note, I find it completely fascinating (and rather demonstrative) that the only woman on this thread (me), voicing a strong, clear opinion, have taken some heat...and yet the men haven't who voice similar opinions. That, in a nutshell, is more telling than anything.

Best-
Noni

“I may not agree with what you say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it.”

-Voltaire

I agree with Noni. She makes some very fine points. Some of the comments that people make in the glamour and nude forum are inappropriate.

I don't agree with some of the comments made in this thread but I do respect them. Just as we should all respect what Noni has to say. She was asked for her opinion and she gave it.

I was a lurker in here at POTN. I read all the comments and enjoyed everyone joking with each other and having a good time. I felt left out, so I joined. I still enjoy it. I would just like to see everyone get along and not argue.

We all come from different backgrounds and we all are not going to agree the way a certain photo was taking or if there is to much contrast or not enough. But I think we should respect that fact that someone doesn't agree with us.

I hope I just didn't alienate myself with some of you, but I just want to state my opinion.

Thank,
Art

I loved your whole post. You made some excellent points.

If I had to pick one of your points that expresses my opinion most accurately, it would be the one quoted above.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

Jim

In order to learn one must be able to absorb the positive as well as the negative aspect of life. Where life come in different sh ape and form there will always be a difference in opinion and these opinion can be suppressed by Mods but not eliminated. The best thing to do is to skip thruough the bad comments and procede to the good comment.

If the photo offends you, then you have much to learn and to grow up. If you are serious about art then you better learn to face the music. The real world is not as clean as you might think. If you examine some of the fine arts you will find some people might interpet it as porn and someone else will interpet it as art. Both Fine Art and Porn, whether you like it or not, are in fact ART.

This isn't rocket science.

There's not a lot in this world which offends me, and school-yard comments about naked women are not counted among them.

This Forum has an "Ignore" feature, doesn't it?

Well, enter the name of the person whose comments you find so offensive, then click "Enter".

Problem solved.

I would submit that someone who's so easily offended by comments on an internet forum, and are hurt so by them, probably shouldn't be on an internet forum.

I'm not judgin', I'm just sayin'...

Steve