Glamour comments!

Sure, there will always be comments that don't fit. If the entire thread contains only those comments, then for me, it's a bit of a waste of time to view them. There's no learning done...just highschool locker room stuff.

LOL, it's not about sheilding me. Like I said earlier, I'm no pure, uptight old maid. I *want* to learn about all aspects of photography; I'm so new at this that I know nothing. But the comments made, for the most part, don't discuss photography. They discuss other things. And so, it's a waste of my time to be there. I might be able to learn more if I spent more time on other forums, take the comments there, and apply them to a nude shot; and so I spend time where I can learn about photography...not about what's attractive to anonymous internet users. I already know that. LOL!

By deal with it, do you mean not say anything when a female perspective is requested? Ignoring it? Being nice and quiet? Or...??? See, for me, dealing with it is not about ignoring it; it's not about just accepting it once my opinion is requested. It's not about saying "well, boys will be boys...so what??" If there is something which irks me, and the opportunity comes to share that, then I think, frankly, that a different view might be necessary to see the entire picture. Everyone's view is valid. Everyone is allowed an opinion. I have one, too...and it's just as valid as the rest. To shut one view out - to tell someone to "grow up" or "deal with it" - does not allow for a complete picture. What it does do is say "hey, I don't want to hear your opinion. It's not valid. It's not wanted. So go away and be quiet." That's not something I care to do.

Remember, I'm not the one who started the thread...but I am the one catching the heat. See anything interesting there? I sure do. And considering some of the pm's I've gotten, others do as well. LOL, but hey, that's fine with me. It's all good; views, sharing and discussion of same, are important to learning the whole thing, and not just what we (ourselves) see.

I agree - and have stated - that there is some outstanding photography in that forum. It's hard to find, though, amidst all the childish commentary, and all the discussion about breast size, submission, and hoopla that goes on. I just read a few threads as an example; there was one single thread which talked briefly about angles, and posing...the rest were highschool commentary about the model.

Me either. Which is why, you see, I'm saying something about it.

Best-
Noni

Me too. And it's not evil. It's normal, natural, and fine.

Solely sexual? Or is there another reason? Again I return to the Master Painters: Renoir, Reubens, Da Vinci and so on. Was their entire aim to sexually titillate a viewer, or to make them think about things? To feel something more than just a sexual arousal? To me, that's the difference. If someone can see a photo, and look into it a bit deeper than the first blush response, then it's done a job which is hard to do. And that makes the masters...

No harm in a different opinion. So why then am I castigated for having one? Not by you, but by some here? Just curious. The original poster posted a thread that contained some serious critique of the forum, but he's not catching flack...yet, I am.

I am left to think that it has less to do with the topic, and more the poster. I am a strong, intelligent, articulate woman (modest, too...can't you tell? LOL), and have not once stated that anyone else's opinion is not valid. If I have, please point it out and let me offer apologies for that. I have not stated anywhere that my opinion is the only right one, because that's not how I feel. All opinion is valid. Including mine.

But think about it from an objective standpoint. I am the only woman on this thread. I am stating an unpopular opinion (apparently). I am looking at the subject a bit more in-depth than I think some others have. And I am articulating it in such a way that (hopefully) people are looking at things from a different perspective.

I think that makes them uncomfortable, in some ways. Some people may never have considered subjugation of women from a woman's perspective. Some may just not like a strong, outspoken woman speaking her mind. Some may not like the fact that they have to look at certain habits they have, and consider if they're appropriate. Whatever the reason, there are reactions that are occuring, rather than proactivity and thought. There is a bit of the "be hush, now, child...your opinion is not really all right to share." There is a bit of "you are not mature enough to understand." There is a bit of "you're out of line with your opinion." A touch of "don't argue with us...you just don't understand."

That part, I think, is likely the most fascinating aspect to this whole thread. A woman speaks up, stating her mind, and is told to "grow up." I also find it rather funny...funny in a sad sort of way.


Best-
Noni

Noni

I think you're miss interpeting the grow up part of my statement. As you said "after the first blush" the same must hold true for anybody elses work not just the Masters. I'm not a big fan of the masters that you have mention with exception of Da Vinci. Who is to say that these work by these masters weren't works to arouse those who commission the work/porn. If you look at the time at which these work were done the Aristocrates of that era were profoundly perverded group of very wealthy individuals. It is todays so call self proclaim art experts that have misinterpret these work of art. These same have instilled into the public mind that these work of art are not porn

Noni, if you consider the images there a "subjugation of women", I would think that the comments there would be a secondary issue, and that you would speak out against the images as oppposed to the comments made about the images.

I'm tryin' to figure this out, but I dunno'...

Steve

O.K. I do see your point in some regards. But when I went back and re-looked at your comment, it read: "If the photo offends you, then you have much to learn and to grow up. If you are serious about art then you better learn to face the music. The real world is not as clean as you might think. If you examine some of the fine arts you will find some people might interpet it as porn and someone else will interpet it as art. Both Fine Art and Porn, whether you like it or not, are in fact ART."
(Emphasis added is mine).

I'm not sure how that was meant in the context of the whole thing. Yes, being told to "grow up" is pretty harsh...considering I'm probably older than you'd think. The real world is somewhere I've lived a very long time; childhood was fun, but over around 13 years old for me. So suggesting that I am not grown up, nor facing music, nor having a good grasp on the "real" world has nothing to do with art, but rather commentary on me. Which is, in the course of things, just fine. You're allowed an opinion...it may not be accurate (seeing as you don't have any idea who and what I am), but you're allowed whatever opinion you want.

So if you could explain it better, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks!

Best-
Noni

Hi, Steve.

Let me give this another shot, and then I've got to get into my office.

I don't necessarily consider the photos as a whole subjugation of women. I consider the responses such, to an extent. Why? If a photo is done tastefully, and the comments (on a photography site) are about the photograph rather than the model, then it's about photo. IF the comments are "hey, great butt" or "wow, lookit those breasts" or "man, I'd like to give her one right now," that is treating a woman as an item...there is no commentary about the photograph, or about the technique needed to create the shot.

If a series of shots is voyeuristic rather than artistic, as in a thread called 'au pair' (iirc), then it's an issue for me, and to me, a subjugation of women. I suspect (although this may take some more thought on my part) that if the entire purpose of a photograph is to arouse a man viewing it, there is a place for that (there are tons of porn sites on the net), but I'm not sure that's the object and intent of the forum here, on a photography site. And placing a purely titillating (with no artistic intent) shot here on a photography site is a call to comment on the woman's body, rather than the photo itself. I'm not too sure what to think about those comments which are "great shot" and nothing else; that could be interpreted either way.

As for my perspective on the subjugation of women, here it is in a nutshell. When a woman is presented as a purely sexual object, there is a subtle denial of her as a thinking, breathing, whole person, with complex thoughts, feelings, hopes and dreams. She becomes nothing more than flesh, a toy, a fantasy...whatever that fantasy may be. And while that is indeed a part of women, it is not she entire. It ignores her as a whole...and that is indeed a great pity.

And so the comments trigger a response in me because of the experiences I've had, as a woman. And it shows me indeed that despite people's best efforts, most of the time a woman is viewed as something far less than what she is; a piece of flesh only. The comments are not about photography, they're about the response alone. And it is that which is demonstrative of the mentality of the viewer; 'tisn't I who needs to focus on artistic value, but rather others (at least in my opinion. LOL!!!).

As to why I'm not so bothered by the photos is because I don't know the intent on some of them. The intent, however, is clear in the comments. It is not quite so clear in the making of the photo with the obvious exception of those specifically and solely designed to sexually arouse a man (or woman).

Like I said, this may take some more thinking through on my part, but I am racing the clock at the moment. Let me know if I've not answered your question, and I'll try again later.

Best-
Noni

Wow.

That was deep.

You know what? They're pictures. Some people will make constructive comments, and others will not.

I accept that this is the reality of it...

Steve

OK I am a woman too, when you say things like so-and-so on her knees, it is offensive to anyone who knows what it means.
I could go on, but Noni has done it beautifully.
If you don't understand that some words/phrases have connotations, then I don't know where you grew up.

How do you bring up expectations in that forum and take it beyond simple voyuerism? Simple. Everyone in here that has a complaint about the locker room-type comments needs to visit the threads and make a meaningful contribution. Make some remarks about the artistics merits of the photograph. Ask questions about lighting, exposure, posing, makeup, etc.

The more that you elevate a discussion, the greater likelyhood that others will follow suit.

Not by a long shot.. We work under several restrictions.. here's just two of them that impact what stays and waht doesn't;

1. The rules of the forum
2. What slips through the cracks..

RE #1:
If the criteria for allowable posts was solely my own opinion.. and not what our rules state, and not under the scrutiny of other mods, Admin and members.. .. ?

Well.. the Forum database might be a lot smaller

There are a number of posts in this thread I'd like to delete..

But if they don't clearly violate forum rules.. it's just my opionion.. and that's not enough.

RE #2:
We do not and can not catch everything.
We rely a lot on reported posts and PMs from the memebers..
So off color comments that;
A: are not spotted by the all seeing eye of the mods,
B: are not reported by another member for whatever reason,
Can most certainly go by with no action taken.

...we do our best but things will allways slip through.

Regarding rules..

...found in Glamour Forum rules;
https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=72850

So the rule is in place.. it is NOT likely to change.
We are discussing now enforcement.

Well, it’s nice to see that reading too much into something isn’t constricted by gender.



I don’t recall getting the impression that anyone doesn’t “understand” this. Rather I see people acknowledging that these comments, regardless of what we’d prefer to see, do show up sometimes.



The question is: “What should be done about it?”



A problem has been identified. As of yet, I haven’t seen any suggestions of anything remotely resembling a solution…



Steve

CyberDyneSystems wrote:
Not by a long shot.. We work under several restrictions.. here's just two of them that impact what stays and waht doesn't;

1. The rules of the forum
2. What slips through the cracks..

RE #1:
If the criteria for allowable posts was solely my own opinion.. and not what our rules state, and not under the scrutiny of other mods, Admin and members.. .. ?

Well.. the Forum database might be a lot smaller

There are a number of posts in this thread I'd like to delete..

But if they don't clearly violate forum rules.. it's just my opionion.. and that's not enough.

RE #2:
We do not and can not catch everything.
We rely a lot on reported posts and PMs from the memebers..
So off color comments that;
A: are not spotted by the all seeing eye of the mods,
B: are not reported by another member for whatever reason,
Can most certainly go by with no action taken.

...we do our best but things will allways slip through.

Regarding rules..


...found in Glamour Forum rules;
https://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthre​ad.php?t=72850

So the rule is in place.. it is NOT likely to change.
We are discussing now enforcement.

I used to be one of the primary moderators on a guitar forum for a rather large and well known internet service provider. I know, all too well, the challenges that come along with a job such as that. I’m glad you’ve pointed out the rules to us; I am. If such comments are inappropriate, as per the rules, they should be removed, certainly.



If enforcement is what’s needed, and the reality is that things fall through the cracks, then maybe a positive step could be that those who see these comments and have a problem with them can forward them to the Mods. I know if I’d have had forum members who did that when I was a Mod, my job would’ve have been infinitely easier.



Aside from Mods removing “those” posts, I wouldn’t expect the problem, and the offenders, to self-regulate.



My apologies if I’ve offended anyone with my posts here. It certainly wasn’t my intent. Besides, I don’t want Noni to be mad at me. She might hit me in the head and cast me overboard on the way to Catalina!



Steve

Wow, this has been a most interesting thread to read. I'm probably going to kick myself later on for getting into the discussion, but I'll jump the gun anyway. Now I just have to figure out where to start...

Yes, there are comments on the glamour forum threads that make it all sound like a male high school locker room. I think there's no denying that. Now, I won't tell you the stuff I've heard girls mention in their locker rooms about men or other women, but let's just say neither of the sexes are saints...

I do browse the glamour forum occasionally. I've seen great work by J.F Doorhoff, CharlesU and others. I've also seen promising stuff and things that I too would refer to as snapshots that'd be better suited for another type of website.
I've also seen comments that have been of the "great tits and ass!" variety, as well as the regular "good photo" or "now, if you'd moved that light over there and maybe posed her this way..." type of comments. It's all there and in various amounts depending on the thread.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't get easily upset about the "tits and ass" comments, nor the "...on her knees" title. Regarding the latter I can understand that the title can be offensive as it does have very sexual connotations. At the same time I have to admit that title could very well have been posted by me if I'd been the photographer. The images shows a girl physically sitting on her knees. Knowing me I'd probably be too damn uncreative to even come up with a better title than "Miss R on her knees", and not even consider the implications until it'd be pointed out to me. But hey, that's just me.

Glamour photography. Budoir photography. Can someone please explain to me the difference? I'm not that familiar with it. For me glamour photography is the stuff you see in magazines like FHM and similar magazines. Yes, it's boring as hell at times to look at basically cloned girls (peroxide blondes with silicone implants and HUGE lips). And all the poses are the same.
Now, I may have my opinions about how utterly boring and non-inventive the images in those magazines are (from a photography pov). I may also have views about what those kind of signals those images have. We all have our opinions and are entitled to them.

The reason I don't get easily upset with the comments is perhaps because they refer to a GLAMOUR photography. I may find them unnecessary, sometimes over the top and so on, but I also partly expect them. To me the FHM type of images has only one purpose: to get men to drool over the women. What those type of magazines do is bascially catering to a kind of charicature fantasy woman. The women posing for those magazines are (should be!) aware of the way the men will look at her. They know the signals they are sending out by posing a certain way and choosing to have the images published in certain magazines.
Heck, I know that if I walk into a club I'll partly expect some man to sooner or later try to hit on my friend or me. I'm even prepared there'll be some man placing his hands somewhere he shouldn't. When it happens I leave him, but I won't leave the club.

I think it's tough to give really good creative feedback to someone, especially if I'm not knowledgeable within the topic myself. I'm partly assuming this is why we don't get much feedback regarding technical improvements in this forum. Actually, we don't get that within majority of the forums. Walk into any forum and I can assure you majority of the comments are "great landscape!", "wow, your son is soooo cute" and similar.

I think that some comments are over the top in the glamour forum, but not all of them. I don't mind someone saying "she's gorgeous and I wish I had her number". It's the ones that may have a more sexual "oh, the things I'd like to do with her"- style that can get offending. It's also not that necessary to yell out comments like "get her a sandwich!". Those actually offend me tons more than the sexual ones. It's not the comments in themselves that offends me personally, but the fact that they're said in a public forum. If you're standing in a room with people, do you blurt out "geesh, you in the red dress, you really should loose weight/have some more sandwiches!" or "oooh, you're gorgeous, love that cleavage...".

Does all art have to have a deep and profound meaning? I don't think so. Does it all have to be original? Nah, but it'd be great if it was. Same with glamour/budoir/erotic photography. I love the imaged Noni described in her post. I could picture the woman in the sand and the scar on the other woman's breasts. Great image ideas. I'm all for it (actually love that stuff), but don't think there's a need for all nudes to be equally "deep". The same way I didn't agree with my video production teacher who told me "movies should have a message, provoke your thoughts and so on". Yes, those serve a purpose, but so do the box office stuff.

Those who are more offended than me with the comments in the glamour forum should not leave it. Why not instead post a good creative comment/question to help the thread to focus back on the photography? There won't be any changes unless people actually make an effort to change things.

As for some of the images being snapshot-like. Well, sometimes you can tell the photographer just couldn't get the technical aspect together like he wanted, other times it's more obvious he took the shots with other things in mind. I've seen plenty of peole telling those photographers that's what their image conveyes, and if that was his purpose he should go somewhere else. Usually if the photographer is trying this genre for the first time and really wants to improve he often will ask about advice for specific things like lighting.

Ok, sorry about the long post. I'll stop now.
/Claire

ROFL!!!

Not mad at anyone. Irked, perhaps, but seeing as I don't know any one of you all (ahem...yet...) there's no anger involved.

As for the "deep" comment, perhaps. I tend to really consider things and not just on a selfish level (how does this affect *me alone*, but also how does this affect *the group* sort of considering) so on occasion you'll get a deep comment from me.

Besides, as a black belt (and a darned good fighter), I know clonking you over the head isn't the best, most effective avenue of attack. LOLOL!!!!

Carol, thanks for your post. I appreciate it...and am very glad you understand my initial post.

Claire, thanks for your post, as well. You've raised some interesting points.

Best-
Noni

One day my brother and his best friend went out to dine together while on vacation in the Florida Keyes. Each year they and their wives vacation there to go diving, collect shells, and eat lots of seafood. They're at a favorite restaurant and my brother, devouring a shrimp, remarks that the shrimp are "off" this time. They are not good. His best friend says, "no, you're wrong, they are good". Which of them is correct?

You see, that's what makes all the arguments in this thread about what is art, what is erotic, what is appropriate absolutely ridiculous. It's all going to be based on our perspective.

I could tell you what MY perspective is but I think you know that, or at least you have decided that from the images I post. Many feminists hate my work and think it is degrading to women. Oddly, lesbian couples (who are often strong feminists) represent a large percentage of people who like and collect my work. Which of them are correct?

As for the ORIGINAL post in this thread, I agree about some of the comments. Particularly the ones which deal with sexual remarks OR (and I especially hate these) those which are personally unflattering to the model. Frankly, you will see me remark about a model, but usually in a flattering or positive way.

I do find it interesting, though, that some people have to espouse their opinion on what is art or what is beautiful as if their opinion is the only one that matters. They often do this behind a shield of being "enlightened". The attitude is quite holier than thou. They often approach the discussion intellectually but it really comes down to is not about enlightenment but about what their individual perspective is. And of course, if your perspective is different you must be quickly dismissed because you are not enlightened. You are ignorant. Otherwise you would certainly be of the same opinion.

There will be no end to this thread until an admin locks it. That's ok. I don't think we'll resolve anthing with our posts because our perspectives are all quite varied.

I will say this for the record. I like and respect women. I work with many different women. Some nude. Some not. Some strong. Some weak. Some very smart. Others not so much. I like and respect them all. Most of my shoots are a collaborative effort. At least, some of what you see posted here. I respect opinions too. And I won't try and tell you that yours or what you are are wrong and that mine are right. Please don't tell me mine are either. If you don't like my work, fine. You're entitled to YOUR opinion about it. Just remember that it's YOUR opinion and since you're only one person, you're likely in the minority.