Glamour comments!

Hi Charles thanks for commenting in this thread, particularly as your work has been mentioned. Have you asked yourself why some feminists have expressed strong opinions about your work? I am also wondering why you seem to be suggesting that the discussion be shut down by the administrators. There has been a lot of open discussion about opinions regarding comments and image style presentation. I think generally that it has been constructive and encouraging for people to participate and make comments on the glamour forum. I also think this discussion has enabled both male and female members to express their opinion about how the female form is potrayed in some posts. Yes it has been an intellectual discussion and I don't see anything wrong with that. If people used their intellect more when posting both images and comments we wouldn't need to have this discussion. I would also like to say that I consider myself a male feminist and my challenge as an image maker is to portray women and men as powerful, sexual and intelligent beings. Trying to get the essecence of people accross to viewers instead of marketing a paricular image is more interesting to me.
Roger.

Art is an expression of the human mind. Being able show our mind is what is in question and the ability to comment, whether any one care to hear/read it is the subject of this thread. I'm not saying that no one here has a right to their opinion. What I'm trying to say is that Art is Art so long as some one think it is Art. If Grandma receives a drawing from her 5 year old granddaughter and decides to put it in a custom made frame and hang it over the mantle. Would you be the one to tell her that is a piece of crap??? I certainly wouldn't. I would just look and appreciate what she is appreciating. If a wife decides to commission a nude photo shoot in erotic poses to give to her husband as an anniversary present and he in turn decides to hang it over the mantle would you not accept an invitation to dinner at their home because of the picture??? Wasn't there a book written where the government decided to burn all books that was consider immoral. Art is Art, it just an expression of the mind.

You're welcome.

No, I don't really look at any particular segment of people who view my work and ask my self why they feel the way they do. I'm not selling a product or trying to figure out how to market to a niche. I'm creating images that I like. Some people will like it. Some will not. Some religious leaders will condemn my work. Some will like it. Some gay men will like it. Some will hate it. Some people over 50 will like it. Some will hate it. I could break the art world down into thousands of pieces by age, gender, sexual preference, political view, religion, etc. and wonder which segments like or hate my work. But why?

I like my work. The people I collaborate with like my work. That's plenty for me. The fact that many people here enjoy my work is nice, but beside the point. The point is, I create it and I appreciate it. That's all the motivation I need.

As for suggesting the thread be shut down. No, I did not suggest it. I merely pointed that the thread had spiraled a couple of times and threads which do that sometimes get shut down. There seemed to be a lot of emotion flying, particularly around 2-3 folks posting.

I think most of the discussion here has been very good and I do SUPPORT your initial post. But I take exception to some of the other posts in this thread.

Hello,
Another woman speaking up here. I mainly browse the people, glamour, and post-processing sections. I have only commented a few times on the glamour section. There are several reasons. Mainly, I’m not always sure what the poster’s intent was when the photograph was posted.

Do they want an honest critique? Are they only showing off their wife, girlfriend, etc? Have they taken what they believe to be a wonderful photograph and want to share? I believe in the last instance, some people are opposed to critique as it takes something away from them. I see this when the original poster becomes defensive despite criticism being constructive.

Maybe even give us some of the motivation for taking the photo. Is it going to be used for press? Is it just for the family album?

I enjoy critique. I like to look at a photo and see what makes it good. I like to look and see what might make it better (to me). I believe critique should focus on the good and the potentially better. It should not be a personal attack on the subject or the photographer.

Often when good critique is offered, that poster is chastised for stating their opinion. Yes, it is their opinion. They are not stating that the photographer must run out and reshoot the photo. They are not stating that different post-processing must be applied. However, by making constructive criticism, they are giving other readers ideas on which to hone our craft. I thought that was what most of us wanted.

For those photos where someone is just showing off their wife or girlfriend (or other family members in the people section), they are not asking for critique. They want to hear “cute kid,” “beautiful wife,” “man, you are so lucky,” etc. Honestly, I’ve been tempted to post the question, “why didn’t you wash their face before you took the photo?” I don’t mean the birthday cake ones.

Now, on to the comments in the glamour section and the original intent of this post.

Yes, I find a number of the comments juvenile and offensive. I don’t believe there is anyway to stop them without having all posts in that section moderated before posting. And that would be a full time job, and cause us to have to pay to utilize the forum.

As for the S on her knees post by Charles, I cringed when I read the title. I looked at the photographer’s name, and since Charles has a reputation of artistic photography that is not demeaning to women, I looked at the photo. It did not fit what I expected from the title. I looked at the pose and the lighting and liked the overall shot. I did notice the wrinkles on the floor and they pulled my eyes away from the subject.

Also, and please note this is my personal opinion, I do not care for tattoos, which to me detracted from the photo. I would not tell the photographer that I don’t like tattoos. I might say it pulls my eyes away from her and therefore I would like to see it cloned out. I would also tell him something positive about his shot as well, as those who critique should always express the positive and the negative.

Granted, there are a number of pros on the forum. There are also a large number of people who want to improve their photography. We learn from the mistakes and successes of others. I would like to see more constructive criticism on the photography and less commentary on the models.

pam

I couldn't work out what was actually glamorous about that shot (& I love tattoos & I liked the shot btw). It's was like 2 friends in the studio having a giggle.

The recent one of the young girl in the forest by Deedspender held for me much more "glamour" & was far more "enchanting" than S on her knees.

I've given up trying to work out what glamour actually is now in terms of photography. Can anyone actually define glamour?? (apart from "An air of compelling charm, romance, and excitement, especially when delusively alluring.")

Ah, I think I'll go back to the Animal forum & look at Rocky's cat terrorising the local snakes.

Wow. Are you suggesting that I have that opinion? LOL, not in the least. I'm suggesting that the commentary be of a higher calibre, and of actual value, rather than highschool locker room stuff. I'm suggesting that actual critique of the shot - rather than the model's suitability - be offered, so that at least on a forum in a photography site, people can learn, rather than simply oogle.

I have great respect for men; I figure that they can elevate themselves to a level where, should the thought arise that the model is someone they are willing to "do," that those comments are held to themself or exchanged in pm, and that what is posted is a bit more respectful and mature. That's all...

I'm not about banning books, photos, or censorship in that manner whatsoever. Good grief.

Best-
Michele

The definitions *I* work from are:

1. Glamour: shots that can appear in Vogue, GQ, or high key sales stuff like high end jewelry. Make-up and hair impeccable, an idealized model wearing clothes. Perfectly lit, perfectly executed, and subtly posed to give an air of sensuality and/or sexuality. Something along the lines of Grace Kelly, Audry Hepburn. There is an air of sexuality, but not a blatant disply of such; more is left to the imagination than is shown.

2. Boudoir: Semi or fully naked women, with the intent to stimulate and excite the viewer, to create the beginning of a fantasy, and to give them something to look at and oogle. Generally more tasteful than visual porn, but a step away from Glam. More often a sexual pose, rather than a sensual one.

3. Naked/Nude: the body in it's glory, but still not showing the private bits (or at least, not necessarily, or not the objective). Something which may immediately bring to mind sex, but also may not.

4. Erotic: See Boudoir

5. Porn: something which actively, intentionally stimulates the viewer into a sexual fantasy. Playboy, Hustler, Playgirl, and the like. Generally one model by themselves, although there can be several models participating. Not graphic sexual depiction, but far more than a hint is there. The intent is to immediately arouse the viewer.

6. Hard Core porn: Sexual acts being depicted.

Now, keep in mind those are my own definitions, and not one found in dictionaries (at least, I've not looked them up...they might be in dictionaries). (And good Lord, I feel I must include the codicil that these are *my* definitions, and not any that I believe should be imposed on anyone else...because if I don't say that, someone is going to tell me I'm being prudish, wanting to censor people, and/or "emotional." Rueful LOLOL!!!!)

There are tons of fine lines, and those lines are easily crossed. Especially when a photographer is new and/or inexperienced, and is actively learning. But with appropriate crit, a photographer can move to a better level of execution, and thusly improve.

Best-
Noni

Hi, Charles.

I too read it where you were asking (or suggesting) that the thread be locked. I am glad you clarified your position. As for you taking exception to some of the other posts, why is that?

And a quick observation...in the two posts you've placed here, you've mentioned you're completely satisfied by your work, that you've got all the clients that you want, and that all is well with your world. Well DONE!!! But the repitition of such makes me think of a phrase used earlier..."methinks thee doth protest too much." But it's all good; you are, as everyone is, allowed an opinion. I'll not catagorize it as "emotional" either...just you voicing an opinion and one which is just as valid as others.

Have a great day!

Best-
Noni

No, I was really commenting that the way the thread was spiraling "it might not end" until locked. A request to lock a thread looks like this:

"Admin, would you please lock this thread"

(Note: I am not really asking that this thread be locked.)

Why was I objecting? Good question. I suppose it's obvious. I was objecting because I disagreed with what was being said.

Do I "protest too much"? Well, I can assure you that all I care about is my approval. If I repeated myself and that makes it look like something else, so be it. Or it could be just that I am getting old.

Oh. I see. Some of the forums I post (and modded) to, this thread is nothing near lockable or even very contentious. It's funny, the different styles of general group acceptance. I've seen some threads at the other forums that keep the mods busy editing the thread, and temp banning folks who go over the line. If that's all it takes to have you wish a thread would get locked, a difference of opinion and discussion of said opinion and couterarguments of such opinion...well...I just dunno. I'm not judging, I'm just sayin'...as they say. I think that this thread is not anywhere near needing to be locked; a relatively free exchange of ideas and opinions have been expressed here, with a very few making it over the line. And I'm frankly appreciative that it hasn't been locked, because there is interesting commentary taking place.

Oh. Again, like I've objected to posts made in Glam. I see. So why can't I express my opinion (and others express theirs, as well) which are different from yours, and not have it be deemed as "spiralling"? Do you always suggest that a thread be ended simply because you don't like the comments? LOL, hey, it's all good...I just find it funny, is all.

LOL, maybe age has something to do with it; I'm not gonna comment on that (considering I'm not a youngster myself). Congratualtions! It's a very good thing that you've got your audience as wide as you'd like, and that you're completely comfortable with your technique. I'm pretty proud of my writing abilities, and when they're critted, as they've been on websites specifically for writing, I use that to make a piece better and more appealing to a wider audience. I guess I'm always willing to learn, and to reach more and more people.

As for your work, I think some is good, and some isn't. Some of it has crystal clear intent, and some is rather muddled. I'm not nearly as good as you in photography, I'm just letting you know my thoughts on the body of work I've seen. For you to post the comment you did in the thread that we've discussed is fascinating; it points out that you haven't read this entire thread, because had you, you'd've noticed where I was asked had I seen it, and my response was yes, I had. Furthermore, the way you articulated what you were going for in that shot was very good...and educational, despite it being somewhat defensive. I understand more where you were trying to get in that shot, and that's the sort of commentary which will spark discussion/ questions/answers/ technique tips, rather than some of the other stuff I've seen in that forum. Kudos to you for elevating it...let's see if it catches on.

Best-
Noni

I think we all have our own definitions of what goes under glamour/budoir/erotic/​porn. Same as we have various definitions what should go under music vs noise and good vs bad writing.

The main issue here is that many seem to at times get tired of some sexually related comments on the glamour forum.
I'd suggest that every photographer who posts on the forum could write a short intro to what his thoughts behind the image was. That'd make it clearer to the viewer what he's trying to achieve and the purpose of the image. This in turn will hopefully help us when giving feedback. Maybe the photographer can even give a small reminder to others that he'd appreciate that the comments are not sexually related or straight out insulting to the model.

I do not believe any type of photography to be easy, but I've been thinking a bit. Perhaps when we go into the glamour forum we all have too high expectations. Because we're so used to seeing stunning flower, sunset, people shots we expect to see equally good glamour stuff. I might be totally off, but it's just a thought.
When we see snapshot-like (i.e. very amateurish) photos of some half naked girl our mind might automatic react a bit harsher than if we see an amateurish shot of a child. I have no doubt that taking semi-nudes, implied nudes, full nudes etc are damn hard to take. We all know the line between making it tasteful as opposed to cheap is very thin (and it's also judged by our individual tastes).

On another note, majority of us who frequent the glamour forum would like to learn. At the same time I don't know how many of us actually give it a try ourselves. It's awfully easy for me to think "oh, that shot is really bad", but then I later on realise that if I gave it a try, my photos might look equally bad (eh, most likely worse!).
It would be quite fun to see everyone who's been participating in this thread to give glamour photography a go. Take an idea, see if you can make something of it and post on the forum for feedback!

I'd love to, with the exception that I don't have anyone who'd model for me, and I haven't got the lighting stuff yet. I'd love to replicate some of the shots I did with the calendar, for my own body of work. And I'd *love* to shoot men.

And I like your idea of a short synopsis or "back story." That might let people do more than just look and go "cool." Honestly, I'd like to see that with the majority of shots in both the Glam and People forum.

Best-
Noni

I thought the forum automatically filtered words like ****.

Guess I was ****ing right. Whatever ****er wrote the scripts for this forum did a ****ing great job.

merde.

Guess it only does it in English.

Anyway. I like the portraits section, some good work. As for the glamor section, there is often great stuff there. However there is also lots of 'hot wife' type stuff which often gets the lower grade comments. Thing is, if someone wants to get better at that type of photo they may well be able to get advice. And, I'm sure the poster often expects and possibly enjoys the comments. If you don't really like it just don't go there. There is plenty of other good stuff in this here PoTN.

Not sure about the rest of teh intarweb though. Some odd people out there.