Glamour comments!

Sometime it is difficult find subjects to shoot and family members are the most accessible subject. If I could get my better half to pose for me it would be great, but I don't think I would post it.

36 more post to 1000. Ooops 35 more.

Yup. And sometimes, we have to clean up the ****ing language manually.

I too have read this thread and have tried to avoid posting. I think a significant point, however, has been missed.

This forum contains members with a wide range of equipment and ability who have particular photographic interests. Thats a part of what makes it a great place to visit. That diversity helps all of us develop our particular areas of interest and keeps the forum alive. I dont think anyone could argue against the human form being a subject for photographic study and some of our members (Charles and Frank in particular) share photos that act as inspiration and instruction to those of us who only dream of creating such images. I have watched Franks ability (bad choice of words but..) grow over the last couple of years to the point where some of his images are exceptional. He has developed a style such that you could probably pick out one of his pictures from a bunch. To brand anything of lesser quality as a 'snapshot' applies equally to any of the photo sharing forums. Look in sports, for instance, to see a huge range of ability from the likes of RFM, to myself who tried really hard to get some similar pics at the British Grand Prix and in failing miserably in the process realised just what a hard job it is. Some of those so called 'snapshots' show the results of the taker trying really hard, and they are brave to post them. Yes some of the comments in glamour and nude relate more to the subject than the picture. That also applies elsewhere. "Great car" or "nice waterfall" also relate to the subject rather than the technical content of the picture. So what?

This is not a pro only forum and the danger of posts like this is that we will alienate anyone from posting anything less than perfection and also put off the pros and semi pros from posting. That would be a huge shame.

Chris, you think it's dangerous to discuss things! I think you like some others have missed the point of my original post. I was expressing an opinion, my opinion about a lot of the comments on the glamour forum. I was asking for comment on that opinion, I got it from the for's and againsts! What's the problem? Its' suppression that's dangerous mate, not discussion.
Roger.

Also tried to bite my tongue, but couldn't -

The point on silly comments in the glamour section is fair. I especially dislike comments on the models (she could use a meal or she has the physique resembling a man - latter being most distasteful). The rules are there for a reason.

The thing that turns me off to this discussion - or any discussion is that moral values of the few are being forced onto many ... and also the fact that its not unusual for folks possessing very strong moral values to have an aptitude for admiring their voluminous prose in a public place (aimed at the state of moral activism in general, not necessarily anyone here).

Charles and others go out of their way to enhance the value of this forum. Imagine this forum without these folks. Its not a trivial time investment to share their knowledge to extent that they do.

So I would just advocate a "lighten up" attitude around here. This forum is not trying to solve the world's problems - its photography.

Just my "opinion" if you will

Ilya

I am also at least a little bit annoyed by some of the comments in the glamour forum. However, when I look through other forums there seem to be the same mix of posts: Those where people are showcasing a picture, and those where people are showing the contents of that picture. The discussions of technical aspects of shooting car racing are interesting to me. The comments about how sweet the exhaust manifold is are not.

If there is any problem with Charles' (and a few other's) posts to the forum it is that they are so well-executed that it is intimidating to give feedback. We should not be intimidated, though.

While I do not feel qualified to say that one part or another of a photograph is wrong or right, especially in those from the masters, I can look at a photo (such as the contentious "S on her Knees") and describe for Charles what I see when I look - where my eyes move, where they linger, what I wonder. That is critique which is neither positive nor negative, but reflective, so that he kows what impact/effect the photo has on a random stranger.

All that said, while there is as bit of annoying locker-room snickering, there is also a LOT of very good discussion of technique in the glamour forum. I am not interested in glam shots, but I read the forum anyways (For the articles, of course) I refer to threads such as Erin smoking, The photo of the wife's back, models in front of the graffitti and, yes, S on her Knees. (Especially Charles' own thoughts on the photo) There is a lot to be learned about photography in that forum. I would suggest that anyone who isn't happy with the level of discussion should keep reading and help to elevate it.

-Adam

Why not address the uncalled for commments on a one by one base?
I feel that generalizing is almost always bad.

When there is one comment which is not appropriate on one thread why not address it there?
If it doesn't work, PM a mod, and things will get setled.

My € 0,02...

In normal circumstances probably no but I do think its a shame if such discussions makes someone fear posting an image for comment lest is be considered a 'snapshot' and therefore not worthy of posting. The old adage about holding your own and holding your peace as seems appropriate comes to mind.

Noni,
I think that majority of us here lack either the proper equipment or the models. Now, the equipment issue hasn't really stopped majority of us before, has it? I'm pretty sure 80% of people posting photos on POTN don't have the lighting gear we'd like to, nor the lenses. We still do our best with the things we have though. And in all hoensty I think we're all doing pretty well!

The issue that many of us may not have access to a model...that's a bit tougher. Many of us use friends and family, and why not within this category too? It doesn't have to be nude shots. Or, do like some of the men I've seen here; use yourself as a model if it's feasible (granted, it's bloody hard to be both in front and behind the camera!).

I don't think we should be scared of posting shots just because we don't have the correct technical equipment. That's also part of the learning process, to make do with the basics.

/Claire

Let me get this straight Chris, you're objecting to my having started this post, or just to some of the comments such as 'snapshots'? Your last sentence certainly seems to be telling me and perhaps others to keep our mouths shut and don't 'rock the boat', however nicely put.
Roger.

Please, Lets keep the heat down. Attacks of a personal nature serve no purpose other then to make what would be a useful exchange of ideas a dead end. If you don't like someones position, refute it with a better one. Please do not an attack their motivation, character or photographic skill, regardless of how much better it would make you feel to do so. .

Something comes to mind, I wondered what "glamour" was before, but now I'm actually asking.

What is the qualifications for a glamour photo??

I ask because a lot of what I see in that forum is (to me), anything but glamorous, but more often just someone having some fun with a pretty friend or capturing someone attractive with the lens, but glamorous???

Technically it's an adjective & means "having an air of allure, romance and excitement". I think a lot of the photos posted under that forum fail to satisfy the meaning of glamorous but should be posted instead in the "People" section or elsewhere as appropriate.

But I think we're dealing with subjectivity here.

Ones' man trash is another mans' treasure, and all that.

What excites or romances one person may do little to another...

Steve

My apologies.

An old phrase comes to mind, one which I might be well served to pay a tad more attention to: "Play the ball, not the player."

With that in mind...

Is it moral to bite one's tongue and not speak up when there's something wrong? Is it wrong to say "this bothers me," or "that can be improved" ? Why is it catagorized as 'strong moral values...voluminous prose...public place' and why is it wrong?

I was raised to believe that if there is something that needs to be said, to say it. I believe that if one speaks their mind about something, that should be seen as their opinion. If a piece of commentary stimulates someone into thought, that is not a bad thing. If it futher stimulates a person not simply towards thought, but towards examining self's long held opinion, then that, as well, is not a bad thing. And if something is said which allows one to see things from a different point of view, well, then, that's all right, too.

If blanket agreement is what is wanted, if differing opinions cause a group of people (also known as a clique) to attack another...well, then, that isn't so good. That's mob mentality, that's synchophantism, that's unchallenged, unquestioning, lemming behavior.

I for one find myself admiring Bikerider for putting the post up in the first place. To have the courage to challenge the status quo is not always an easy event. Historically, those who've stood up to the status quo have been able to make some significant changes in the way things are done, and often history shows us our error when we don't have the courage to stand up.

In this specific thread, there are phrases scattered about, such as "my women" and "hold your peace," and "not very open minded." (Many more, but those demonstrate certain things). It's that sort of defense of status quo that I find significantly objectionable. Why should any woman be "my woman'? Why should one hold their peace, as long as it's not rife with foul language, or derogatory to a person? Why is one's mind catagorized as 'closed' if one holds a different opinion?

And frankly, it's rather humorous (in a sad, rueful way) to see little comments thrown in on posts not here discussing this thread...and commenting in a negative way about opinions and thoughts on this post. The sniggering, the childish attitude, and the "good ol' boys" network that becomes apparent with that is what I'm talking about in this entire thread. I left high school a long time ago, and have learned to form my own opinion about things, and not just follow someone around because they hold themselves out to be an expert on something...which is part of the growing up process, and part of life. As for being a strong person, darned right I am. I speak my mind...there's an ignore feature if it bothers one too much. I'm also willing to discuss it, and explain it, and elaborate on it when asked, backing it up with arguments. And how is that wrong? If strength in a woman is offensive, please be offended. But look to see why you are. Examine self to see what the issue is, because I promise you, we do not know each other well enough to have it be personal in any way.

Which, I might point out, did not occur until after this thread appeared.

I did that...and nothing happened except to have the thread locked. I gave an opinion, it was not useful, and did not spark a discussion about things in the manner this thread has.

I agree; generalization isn't useful for the most part. But sometimes, light can be shined on something by generalization, too, and I think that's what this thread was doing...bringing to light some issues which some members of POTN found problematic.

LOL, why is this not a normal circumstance? And I've seen people afraid to post not because of the quality of their work, but because of some of the comments they recieve. As for holding one's own and holding's one peace, it's all good if that's what you choose to do, but if I choose to speak, that's also fine.

Best-
Noni