Become A Better Digital Photographer

CyberDyneSystems wrote in post #10359538
Agreed, but I don't need to shoot film to learn the Zone system..

It's best application is film, but still...

Agree with that to but knowing it with film can only help you become you a better more balanced knowledgeable photographer and once you know it and understand it the principles are easily adaptable to other formats and who knows you might find another format you like working in. There is more to photography than just Canon. Not putting it down I love my 5Ds but the one size fits all is truly a myth.

Ok, I didn't read the entire thread. I got through the first 10 pages and skimmed the rest.

Alot of you guys are missing the point of challenging yourself by shooting film, only using one lens, 356, and things like that. The point is to force you to look at things from a new point of view. Its all to easy to get stuck in a rut of the easy and familiar, we are all human. You might not even think you are in a rut, but everyone can benefit from a new perspective.

Stregone wrote in post #10360026
Ok, I didn't read the entire thread. I got through the first 10 pages and skimmed the rest.

Alot of you guys are missing the point of challenging yourself by shooting film, only using one lens, 356, and things like that. The point is to force you to look at things from a new point of view. Its all to easy to get stuck in a rut of the easy and familiar, we are all human. You might not even think you are in a rut, but everyone can benefit from a new perspective.

I totally agree with this,. and any other challenge we wish to throw at each other/ourselves. Many of the regular weekly or monthly challenges found both on the net or in the now rarer old school photography club revolve around the concept of imposing limitations for the challenge. (and I'm not just talking about themes or subject matter) No argument from me about the efficacy of these challenges.

Perspective is the starting point of a drawing. It's not possible to be an accomplished painter without also having a clear understanding of perspective in drawing. Photography isn't any different from drawing or painting when it comes to perspective. Perspective is the starting point in photography just like it is in the other arts. Currently, the only way to master all of the possibilities for working with perspective in photography is by using a view camera and film.

View camera movements combined with digital backs are still limited and filled with potential color problems that make the combination unpractical for learning purposes. The problems associated with digital backs may be solved one day but they aren't solved yet. Film is still the medium necessary to master perspective on a view camera. Polaroids are actually a great way to learn the view camera.

When people think of perspective in photography, they usually think of correction for converging horizontal and vertical lines. But that is only one component of perspective. Perspective encompasses an entire range of issues besides just correction of parallel lines. It can include the visual psychology associated with lens axis placement, precise placement of focal planes, manipulation of depth of focus (which is the opposite of depth of field) and so on. One of example of an unconventional use of perspective control in photography is to use camera movements to prevent objects at infinity from appearing in focus because slight softness at infinity adds to the illusion of depth. Photographs that are sharp from front-to-back actually destroy 3-dimensional depth.

People can argue about digital and film all day long. And they can work in whatever medium they desire. But it's not possible to master the art of camera perspective on anything other than film. Post-processing and photoshop techniques associated with perspective are digital imaging and not photography. Digital imaging is a separate medium from photography.

The purpose of my comments about perspective were to highlight the fact that film still has it's rightful place at the beginning of any competent photography education. Mastery of perspective is just a single reason, but there are still many more reasons that I have left unmentioned.

Stregone wrote in post #10360026
Ok, I didn't read the entire thread. I got through the first 10 pages and skimmed the rest.

Alot of you guys are missing the point of challenging yourself by shooting film, only using one lens, 356, and things like that. The point is to force you to look at things from a new point of view. Its all to easy to get stuck in a rut of the easy and familiar, we are all human. You might not even think you are in a rut, but everyone can benefit from a new perspective.

sometimes the rut itself is choice. sometimes your perspective can be limited by the over abundance of options and methods. i think for the vast majority of DSLR users out there, limiting themselves rather than exposing themselves to more options would be a more fruitful venture into discovering new insights. think about perspectives, shooting styles, habits.. is a recommendation for another format really what people need?

alt4852 wrote in post #10360379
sometimes the rut itself is choice. sometimes your perspective can be limited by the over abundance of options and methods. i think for the vast majority of DSLR users out there, limiting themselves rather than exposing themselves to more options would be a more fruitful venture into discovering new insights. think about perspectives, shooting styles, habits.. is a recommendation for another format really what people need?

Do you really need knowledge and experience with other things? Do you need to continue to learn and push yourself to be the best?

If you stay safe and in your comfort zones all you get is safe, boring work. And in creative fields in both professional and personal work safe can be the kiss of death. Learn all you can.

Life is short and you never know what will give you inspiration until you try it. You'll never know how good you can be unless you push yourself. If it were easy everyone would be great or successful but its hard. So tell me a good logical reason why knowledge is a bad thing and knowing as much about your craft is a bad thing. I have yet to hear a good argument for mediocrity.

Yeah, just stay with what you know and whats safe. That sounds about as bad as those photographers that refused to except digital the RD was talking about. I don't know about you but my own curiosity moves me to learn all I can about the craft I'm in. Maybe thats why I've been successful all of these years. In this day and time there is never an excuse for ignorance and the unwillingness to learn is usually self imposed.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #10360872
Do you really need knowledge and experience with other things? Do you need to continue to learn and push yourself to be the best?

If you stay safe and in your comfort zones all you get is safe, boring work. And in creative fields in both professional and personal work safe can be the kiss of death. Learn all you can.

Life is short and you never know what will give you inspiration until you try it. You'll never know how good you can be unless you push yourself. If it were easy everyone would be great or successful but its hard. So tell me a good logical reason why knowledge is a bad thing and knowing as much about your craft is a bad thing. I have yet to hear a good argument for mediocrity.

Yeah, just stay with what you know and whats safe. That sounds about as bad as those photographers that refused to except digital the RD was talking about. I don't know about you but my own curiosity moves me to learn all I can about the craft I'm in. Maybe thats why I've been successful all of these years. In this day and time there is never an excuse for ignorance and the unwillingness to learn is usually self imposed.

you have completely misinterpreted my post, and have consequently written a response to a position that nobody is advocating.

you repeatedly prompt me to answer this strawman argument about how i think knowledge is a bad thing. as i keep on responding, it's all about prioritizing and making the most with the time that you have.. because you're right, life is short. why did you join the marines? why are you a photographer? it's because you made a choice, to prioritize these things in your life. tell me a good logical reason why you didn't become a baker, plumber, doctor, or opera singer? don't you want more knowledge and experience? are you being mediocre since you did not pursue any of those?

at the risk of being misunderstood again, think of photography like scientific exploration.

all i'm saying is that you don't need to build a rocket ship and explore the stars to discover new worlds. a biologist or a nuclear physicist can tell you, there is a lifetime of uncharted territory to explore in your own back yard and you'd still only be scratching the surface of understanding it.

I think that I understand what Allen is trying to convey and it reminds me of a story in Annie Leibovit'z book "At Work." She commented that the perspective on her shot of Bette Midler in roses wasn't perfect. Her comment was that she didn't exactly know that it was wrong at the time and was basically learning on the job. It's not hard to do the math here...She never learned the view camera and that meant she didn't have real control over perspective.

Sometimes, a person is required to have a broad knowledge simply to understand something small. In the previous story, the photographer would need an understanding of perspective control with a view camera in order to understand the limitations of using something other than a view camera.

The only way to judge the competence of a work is by applying standard. For example, if a photographer chooses to work exclusively in 35mm then that doesn't change the fact that the view camera still sets the standard for perspective control. Any photographer that doesn't understand the view camera then doesn't have a sense of standards for 35mm either. He won't know the limitations of 35mm or how to work with or around them. This leads to technical incompetence.

The relationship I mentioned between 35mm and view cameras in terms of perspective control is just one example of how sometimes it takes a broad knowledge in order to understand something small. In order to understand the limitations of a 35mm, then a person has to understand a view camera too. But there are many more examples of this concept at work in regards to sharpness, exposure, or lighting etc. There are standards in photography that often require a broader knowledge to comprehend and the people that choose to disregard the broader knowledge often end up supporting or creating incompetent work. I think that's ultimately the point that Allen is trying to make...

alt4852 wrote in post #10361140
you repeatedly prompt me to answer this strawman argument about how i think knowledge is a bad thing. as i keep on responding, it's all about prioritizing and making the most with the time that you have.. because you're right, life is short. why did you join the marines? why are you a photographer? it's because you made a choice, to prioritize these things in your life. tell me a good logical reason why you didn't become a baker, plumber, doctor, or opera singer? don't you want more knowledge and experience? are you being mediocre since you did not pursue any of those?

at the risk of being misunderstood again, think of photography like scientific exploration.

all i'm saying is that you don't need to build a rocket ship and explore the stars to discover new worlds. a biologist or a nuclear physicist can tell you, there is a lifetime of uncharted territory to explore in your own back yard and you'd still only be scratching the surface of understanding it.

I'll say this again I really don't care what anyone does. But if you take the time to learn disciplines like the zone system, work with large format, that will make you a more knowledgeable and thus a better photographer and it can help you in many, many ways no matter what format you wind up using.

Gentleman Villain wrote in post #10361446
The relationship I mentioned between 35mm and view cameras in terms of perspective control is just one example of how sometimes it takes a broad knowledge in order to understand something small. In order to understand the limitations of a 35mm, then a person has to understand a view camera too. But there are many more examples of this concept at work in regards to sharpness, exposure, or lighting etc. There are standards in photography that often require a broader knowledge to comprehend and the people that choose to disregard the broader knowledge often end up supporting or creating incompetent work. I think that's ultimately the point that Allen is trying to make...

you don't need to necessarily use something to understand it's function. i've used medium format with bellows, 35mm in all sorts of forms along with tilt shift lenses. i fully understand how perspective works. i think if you truly understand the physics behind the photographic process, you will be a far throw from being technically incompetent.

airfrogusmc wrote in post #10362780
I'll say this again I really don't care what anyone does. But if you take the time to learn disciplines like the zone system, work with large format, that will make you a more knowledgeable and thus a better photographer and it can help you in many, many ways no matter what format you wind up using.

..are you kidding me? what you're "saying again" is something that i've agreed to pages ago. that isn't what i was discussing at all. it's as if you have an argument in your head and regardless of what other people say, you hardheadedly parrot your original statement.

allen, please listen:

1. nobody is denying that learning the zone system and view camera style perspective control is beneficial to a photographer.

2. the question i posed was whether offering such advice was in the best interest of a fledgling photographer as opposed to advising them to continue focusing on the equipment they already have and choosing not to explore large format work until they had established a solid understanding of their own format first.

honestly, i feel like i'm trying to communicate with a brick wall here.

alt4852 wrote in post #10363217
you don't need to necessarily use something to understand it's function. i've used medium format with bellows, 35mm in all sorts of forms along with tilt shift lenses. i fully understand how perspective works. i think if you truly understand the physics behind the photographic process, you will be a far throw from being technically incompetent.

..are you kidding me? what you're "saying again" is something that i've agreed to pages ago. that isn't what i was discussing at all. it's as if you have an argument in your head and regardless of what other people say, you hardheadedly parrot your original statement.

allen, please listen:

1. nobody is denying that learning the zone system and view camera style perspective control is beneficial to a photographer.

2. the question i posed was whether offering such advice was in the best interest of a fledgling photographer as opposed to advising them to continue focusing on the equipment they already have and choosing not to explore large format work until they had established a solid understanding of their own format first.

honestly, i feel like i'm trying to communicate with a brick wall here.

Knowledge is always in everyone's best interest don't you think? I think if you read back some you will see what I had to say about maybe getting comfortable shooting manual and understanding aperture ISO and shutter speeds before taking on the zone system. So apparently you're not reading.

I just love shooting film. It slows me down and my decisions are more deliberate. I just processed a roll of Acros 100 (120) and it's now drying. Can't wait to get it on the light table and then scan a few that look good. I'm off to Belgium next week and I'm taking my Fuji GA645i medium format rangefinder and several rolls of Ektar, 400H and Acros, maybe even a couple of rolls of precious Neopan 400 and Velvia. Should be a good time.

Tony-S wrote in post #10363291
I just love shooting film. It slows me down and my decisions are more deliberate. I just processed a roll of Acros 100 (120) and it's now drying. Can't wait to get it on the light table and then scan a few that look good.

Tony,, I'd love to see your results..

Any chance of posting a shot or two??