3 weeks after she buys an XTI she does this!

^kcbrown

I do enjoy being condescended by persons that are still naive enough to believe that the US is a free market economy

cough cough Wall Street bailouts....cough cough Federal Reserve Bank....cough cough...GM Motors...cough cough....TARP....cough cough Fannie Mae Freddie Mac....cough cough cough...US dollar fiat currency collapse....cough cough....ahem

Too bad POTN doesn't allow political discussions because it sure would be fun to go there. But it is precisely because we don't yet enjoy a true free market economy that guilds and an academic method have not yet formed.

kcbrown wrote in post #10421555
The problem with the idea of a guild is that it will turn political -- guaranteed.

No, as nice an idea it might be in theory, I guarantee it will fail spectacularly in practice. I'd rather let the free market do its thing.

QTF--you only have to make one visit to a local camera club to see this in practice.

The problem with the children of the entitled age is that they don't understand the time and effort required to establish a reputation and clientel--and that the old established pro shooters aren't just going away.

What seems hot and trendy today may well seem old and dated in the near future--see also leisure suits and Harvest Gold appliances.

These type of associations currently exist for established professionals:

ACMP | AIPP | AOP | APA | Aperture | ASMP | ASPP | BAPLA | BFP | BIPP | BPPA | BSoUP | CAPIC | Editorial Photographers | FACTS | FEP | Fine Art Trade Guild | FIAP | FIOF | Fogra | GPA | I3A | IAAP | ICC | IDEAlliance | IPTC | IRgA | IS&T | ISCC | ISJ | IVRPA | MPA | NAPP | NANPA | NPPA | NZIPP | PACA | PAPA | PICA | PIC(UK) | PIC(US) | PMAI | PMDA | PPA | PPFA | PPOC | PRA | Pro Imaging | PSA | PWP | RPS | SAA | SGIA | SEP | SID | SPE | SPIE | SPS | SPSTJ | SWPP | TAGA | TIPA | Ugra | WIPI | WHNPA

Just because we may not feel a need to join the new age social club does not mean a lack of talent--or credentials

Gentleman Villain wrote in post #10421854
^kcbrown

I do enjoy being condescended by persons that are still naive enough to believe that the US is a free market economy

cough cough Wall Street bailouts....cough cough Federal Reserve Bank....cough cough...GM Motors...cough cough....TARP....cough cough Fannie Mae Freddie Mac....cough cough cough...US dollar fiat currency collapse....cough cough....ahem

Too bad POTN doesn't allow political discussions because it sure would be fun to go there. But it is precisely because we don't yet enjoy a true free market economy that guilds and an academic method have not yet formed.

I don't know any photographers or mom & pop shops who got TARP bailouts. Free market economics does reign supreme at the small business level.

Gentleman Villain wrote in post #10421854
^kcbrown

I do enjoy being condescended by persons that are still naive enough to believe that the US is a free market economy

cough cough Wall Street bailouts....cough cough Federal Reserve Bank....cough cough...GM Motors...cough cough....TARP....cough cough Fannie Mae Freddie Mac....cough cough cough...US dollar fiat currency collapse....cough cough....ahem

When you have a problem, you solve the problem. You do not solve some other unrelated problem and then proclaim that by doing so, you have taken care of the original problem. If you try that, then you will find yourself surprised later on that somehow, the original problem didn't go away.

The market as it relates to photography right now is about as free as it gets. The proof is in the existence of the very "problem" that has been raised here!

That is certainly possible, but you have completely avoided the issues I have raised and have not shown how the guild would make possible something that isn't already possible. If a photographer wishes to show his credentials right now, he can. As you say, it's then up to the customer to decide whether or not that makes any difference. Since it is already possible for such credentials to be shown, and since the general public seems to not be demanding such credentials, it should be obvious that a "seal of approval" stamp by a guild will probably make about as much of a difference as whether or not the photographer can show his credentials.

If professional photographers wish to inform the public about the advantages of hiring them versus the relatively uneducated newcomers, they can place ads and such. There's nothing stopping them from doing that, and no guild is required for it.


In short, the problem you're trying to fix doesn't originate with the photographers (experienced, professional, or otherwise), it originates with the customers. You don't need to place any controls (voluntary or otherwise) on the photographers, you need to educate the customers.


Like I said, if you want to solve a problem, you do so directly, not by going off and solving some other, unrelated problem.

There are three reasons I don't get hired:

1. My work samples were not up to their standard (high end consumer).
2. My price is too high (low end consumer).
3. Our personalities and approaches do not "mesh" (differences of opinion).

I have never lost a potential client because I didn't have a certificate or plaque saying I'm a photographer, and every client I have gained was because they like my work, my price, and my personality.

People are going to hire who they like, not what some quasi-social/political boy's club is going to tell them they like. If anything, most folks have a disdain for such organizations rather than a respect for them.

shayneyasinski wrote in post #10421002
she lived in my city then moved, I am friends with her and many of the people in her circle as they too live here and get her messages on facebook or by email.

she is one of them people who is always starting a new business about every 6 months till they find somthing new and better..

My posts are often about what I see other people doing that I do not agree with like the one where the pro photographer was using an old silver xt and a kit lens with a bag of screw on lenses for wide, fish, and zoom.

This time I want to follow her as she goes on with her new business that to her was going to make big cash after she looked into a session with a local pro that was way over her budget and all she gleaned from the meeting with the local pro is "he has a big camera" and if she got one where the lenses came off as she says , could then let her into the world of big paying gigs.

She's one of your friends and this is how you talk about her on a public forum?

Guess I must be getting old - if somebody is really a friend of mine I treat them with a hekuva' lot more respect than that. If I think they're going about something in the wrong way, then I may have a little sit down and face to face chat with them, give them some advice if they want it, and wish them well. I wouldn't be hanging them out to dry in front of an audience .

I wonder if she still considers you one of her friends.... does she know she's being made the center of discussion? So you intend to follow her and document her business "moves".... if she eventually is successful at something will you report that, or are you just interested in the failures and embarrassments?

Gentleman Villain wrote in post #10421854
^kcbrown

I do enjoy being condescended by persons that are still naive enough to believe that the US is a free market economy

cough cough Wall Street bailouts....cough cough Federal Reserve Bank....cough cough...GM Motors...cough cough....TARP....cough cough Fannie Mae Freddie Mac....cough cough cough...US dollar fiat currency collapse....cough cough....ahem

Too bad POTN doesn't allow political discussions because it sure would be fun to go there. But it is precisely because we don't yet enjoy a true free market economy that guilds and an academic method have not yet formed.

hmmm so we can get bailed out too?

By the way, I would argue that the reason you see so few guilds these days is that their primary purpose has been usurped by other mechanisms (for various reasons, among them being cost, accessibility, etc.).

What primary purpose is that? Why, to teach others how to practice the craft in question, of course.

That purpose is now served by a number of alternative mechanisms, including (but not limited to):

• Books and libraries
  
• Colleges, universities, and trade schools
  
• Television
  
• The internet
  

uhmmmm let me think.......nope!

sapearl wrote in post #10422080
She's one of your friends and this is how you talk about her on a public forum?

Guess I must be getting old - if somebody is really a friend of mine I treat them with a hekuva' lot more respect than that. If I think they're going about something in the wrong way, then I may have a little sit down and face to face chat with them, give them some advice if they want it, and wish them well. I wouldn't be hanging them out to dry in front of an audience .

I wonder if she still considers you one of her friends.... does she know she's being made the center of discussion? So you intend to follow her and document her business "moves".... if she eventually is successful at something will you report that, or are you just interested in the failures and embarrassments?

I have sat down with her and offered advice and she does not want to listen or learn any basics because she thinks the camera just knows and editing can fix anything.

When I last talked to her she just said she would shoot some pics and play around then a week later she starts up shop.....

As far as her being a center of discussion, she knows about the forum and thinks all of us overthink pictures and make them too complicated.

shayneyasinski wrote in post #10422628
As far as her being a center of discussion, she knows about the forum and thinks all of us overthink pictures and make them too complicated.

She may be right.

It always amazes me how a simple idea can get so lost on so many people. I've read through a bunch of posts made by some that think they're arguing with me but really they didn't even understand the original point in the first place. A lot of photographers prefer to think themselves as open-minded and accepting of new ideas. But as soon as they're confronted with something that is slightly outside of their current frame of reference then the knee jerk reaction is usually good old fashioned narrow-minded defense of the status quo. The best part of the process is when something new starts to catch on then the original detractors end up copying it and then pretending that they agreed with it all along.

jeppoy wrote in post #10422145
hmmm so we can get bailed out too?

haha...I'm still waiting for my bailout

Gentleman Villain wrote in post #10422985
It always amazes me how a simple idea can get so lost on so many people. I've read through a bunch of posts made by some that think they're arguing with me but really they didn't even understand the original point in the first place. A lot of photographers prefer to think themselves as open-minded and accepting of new ideas. But as soon as they're confronted with something that is slightly outside of their current frame of reference then the knee jerk reaction is usually good old fashioned narrow-minded defense of the status quo. The best part of the process is when something new starts to catch on then the original detractors end up copying it and then pretending that they agreed with it all along.

Heh.

Well, hopefully you're not referring to my comments about your guild idea.

To be honest, I've got no problem at all with pro photographers forming a single group for the purposes of training, education (consumer and otherwise), etc., or even with doing the "seal of approval" thing that you were thinking of.

However, I'm deeply skeptical that the idea will have the effect on the market you seek, both for the reasons I mentioned earlier and because without external enforcement (which, practically speaking, happens only through the law, i.e. government enforcement), other photographers who are for whatever reason not allowed to join the guild will form their own groups, devise their own certification standards and seals of approval, etc. And the end result is that the consumer will wind up being just as confused as before, because without the education that I alluded to before, they will be just as unable to distinguish between the various seals of approval (and thus determine if the photographer they're considering is worth anything) as they are unable to distinguish between "good" and "bad" photographers now. That is the direct consequence of a strict set of requirements for membership, which is the very mechanism that gives the guild's "seal of approval" any informative power at all.


Additionally, I find it deeply ironic that you would profess to be a strict Constitutionalist, only to go on and suggest that the current situation is anything but a completely free market, since everyone involved (including the newbies who are coming in and attempting to sell their services) is a completely free actor within the market -- the very essence of what defines a free market.


I'm compelled to respond to this specifically and separately:

The loss of the "status quo" is precisely what you're railing against!!

Technology has changed the photography marketplace, making it possible for nearly anyone to be able to pick up a camera and start a business around it. Will they succeed? Possibly (probably?) not. But now they can try, whereas before they simply couldn't (without at the very least getting the requisite training one way or another). And just as with any offering of goods or services, most of them will be mediocre at best. Some will manage to survive on their ability to sell sand in the desert instead of by selling a quality product. But some will wind up producing outstanding images.

Regardless, the situation has changed (and not for the first time, I would add). How deeply ironic it is that you would simultaneously suggest (in response to a change in the market from the status quo) that the market needs to be regulated and that, at the same time, it's objectionable to defend the status quo! Methinks you need to make up your mind...

Next thing you know we'll have...... DSLR Police that catches people without permits, DSLR permits to buy camera gears..........Board of Photographe'rs seal of approval for businesses? I wonder what the camera makers would say...probably F'U, we'll sell camera to whom ever can afford and willing to pay for it.

Gentleman Villain wrote in post #10422985
It always amazes me how a simple idea can get so lost on so many people. I've read through a bunch of posts made by some that think they're arguing with me but really they didn't even understand the original point in the first place.

That's the nature of the beast with long threads. Why don't you make a single, concise coherent post of exactly what point you're trying to make (and is being lost on so many people). Perhaps your point is getting lost in the original poster's point, Lowriders' point, etc.

Lowrider complained that nobody could understand a coherent argument, and when I asked him to make a coherent argument (he hadn't clearly made one at that point), he headed for the hills!