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Thread started 29 Jun 2010 (Tuesday) 05:27
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Long Exposures & ISO 50

 
Cham_001
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Jun 29, 2010 05:27 |  #1

I am now looking at extending the capabilities of my 5D-based system
and am planning to use the 5D for astro-celestial photography in Brazil.
(Where I live there on my ranch - there are few street lights and the moon-lit sky provides plenty of star-gazing opportunities).

Question:

Is the combination of ISO 50 and a long-exposure of say 10-30secs adequate to capture 'sharp' photographs (knowing that the celestial-bodies move)?

Camera:
The 5D supports an ISO speed of 50.

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I do not have any decent focal-length prime lens to use - so I will source either a suitable 200mm or a 300mm Canon EF lens probably in August.

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bsaber
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Jun 29, 2010 13:15 |  #2

I would stick with ISO 100. ISO 50 is a non-native ISO which is basically ISO 100 pulled down. Technically, it would give you less dynamic range. Anything longer than 5 second exposure will cause trailing especially at longer focal lengths. You'll need a tracking mount to get sharp images unless you're trying to get constellations or the milky way. What do you plan to shoot, star trails, planets, deep space?




  
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mikekelley
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Jun 29, 2010 13:35 |  #3

30 seconds is enough to not get star trails depending on how wide your field of view is. 30 seconds at 200mm will be vastly different with regards to star movement than 30 seconds at 15mm.


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bsaber
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Jun 29, 2010 14:19 |  #4

mikekelley wrote in post #10448330 (external link)
30 seconds is enough to not get star trails depending on how wide your field of view is. 30 seconds at 200mm will be vastly different with regards to star movement than 30 seconds at 15mm.

He was planning to use a 200mm or 300mm. Anything more than 5 seconds will get trailing at that FL. Probably less.




  
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Cham_001
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Jun 29, 2010 17:09 |  #5

Guys thanks for these quick responses: (Total 'newbie' to this area of photography)
I plan to shoot mainly half-moon and full-moon shots & star clusters using either a 200mm or 300mm
lens. I have no plans to shoot deep space nor to get close-ups of Jupiter/Saturn/Pluto etc.
@ Ronnie:
1.> ok, so I can stick with ISO 100. (I know how to activate the Low ISO Noise Reduction - is this worth doing?).
2.> I have heard of these Tracking Mounts - do you have any more info' & suggestions?
3.> For my purposes - do I really need them? (Tracking Mounts)

@ Mike:
3.> Star-trails ? - I take it that these are unavoidable then?
Lets say that I do choose a 200mm lens, that allows for say a 15sec exposure - would I still get 'star-trails?
4.> knowing that these space orbs move across/around/orbit - how do I capture a decent shot then ?


"... with a clear perspective - the confusion is clearer ..."
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Lenses: 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM, 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM
Flashguns: 580ex II x 4, MT24 macro flash
Accessories: Pkt Wiz TT5 x 5, AC3 x 2, MiniTT1 x 2, Sekonic L-758DR
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bsaber
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Jun 29, 2010 17:29 |  #6

Cham_001 wrote in post #10449510 (external link)
Guys thanks for these quick responses: (Total 'newbie' to this area of photography)
I plan to shoot mainly half-moon and full-moon shots & star clusters using either a 200mm or 300mm
lens. I have no plans to shoot deep space nor to get close-ups of Jupiter/Saturn/Pluto etc.
@ Ronnie:
1.> ok, so I can stick with ISO 100. (I know how to activate the Low ISO Noise Reduction - is this worth doing?).
2.> I have heard of these Tracking Mounts - do you have any more info' & suggestions?
3.> For my purposes - do I really need them? (Tracking Mounts)

@ Mike:
3.> Star-trails ? - I take it that these are unavoidable then?
Lets say that I do choose a 200mm lens, that allows for say a 15sec exposure - would I still get 'star-trails?
4.> knowing that these space orbs move across/around/orbit - how do I capture a decent shot then ?

It's better to the noise reduction in post. Take dark frames to remove the thermal signal from long exposures. If you're shooting the moon, you won't need anything special. For star clusters, you won't need tracking mounts depending on your exposure times.

If you want tracking mounts, don't go cheap. Pay for the sturdy and reliable ones which would easily run into $1000+ but isn't necessary for what you want to do.

You posed your last two questions to Mike but I'll throw in my opinion as well. Star trails are unavoidable at 200mm with exposures longer than 5 seconds as I stated earlier. To capture a decent shot, you either need to go wider or get yourself a tracking mount. I would recommend you check this thread for more info: https://photography-on-the.net/forum/forumdis​play.php?f=126

Hope that helps :)




  
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HappySnapper90
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Jun 29, 2010 21:25 |  #7

I believe that ISO 50 in RAW mode on the 5D (and any other Canon dSLR with the setting) is just ISO 100 with a built in EC +1. You would get the same result if you used ISO 100 and EC +1.




  
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tonylong
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Jun 29, 2010 21:39 |  #8

Cham, for moon shots you don't need to do anything special, and you certainly don't want a long exposure.

Someone has suggested an "f/11 rule" that is similar to the "Sunnny 16 rule" (for daylight exposures): you can start with f/11, ISO 100 and a 1/100 shutter speed. You can manually focus at infinity unless you can get the AF to activate on some moon contrast (a nice clear night). Using MF, though, allows you to use Live View zoomed in at full 10x magnifiction which can be a real nice MF aide.

In practice, I prefer to underexpose the moon by a tad to ensure that all the detail is clear, meaning that I can increase the shutter speed a bit. So if you are chimping, it doesn't hurt to make sure the moon is not as bright as you might think of it.


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bsaber
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Jun 29, 2010 21:53 |  #9

HappySnapper90 wrote in post #10450831 (external link)
I believe that ISO 50 in RAW mode on the 5D (and any other Canon dSLR with the setting) is just ISO 100 with a built in EC +1. You would get the same result if you used ISO 100 and EC +1.

I agree but you do lose a bit of dynamic range.




  
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tonylong
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Jun 29, 2010 23:56 |  #10

Originally Posted by HappySnapper90
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I believe that ISO 50 in RAW mode on the 5D (and any other Canon dSLR with the setting) is just ISO 100 with a built in EC +1. You would get the same result if you used ISO 100 and EC +1.

bsaber wrote in post #10451017 (external link)
I agree but you do lose a bit of dynamic range.

Well, think about it -- you'd get the same result, the same potential clipping of highlights. If you shoot using ISO 50 you need to be sure that your highlights are not even close to being clipped and that you don't clip shadows you need good detail in.


Tony
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bsaber
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Jun 30, 2010 13:04 |  #11

tonylong wrote in post #10451601 (external link)
Well, think about it -- you'd get the same result, the same potential clipping of highlights. If you shoot using ISO 50 you need to be sure that your highlights are not even close to being clipped and that you don't get shadows you need good detail in.

True. It's much easier said than done when shooting astro so it's better to just stick with ISO 100.




  
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Cham_001
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Jul 01, 2010 04:31 |  #12

Thank you all for your patience and this vital advice. ;)

I will look into selecting my prime telephoto lens first. Then I guess its a case of 'trial & error'.
To shoot at ISO 100 (or even higher) will not phase me, I just need to have sharp images.

For the Moon shots:
Shutter Speed - Tv - 1/30 - 1/125 - faster shutter speeds because the Moon itself emits light
Other kit - Track mounts are only necessary for long exposures (5sec +) using long focal length lenses
ISO - Dynamic range retention at ISO 100
Software - Noise Reduction - eliminate in PP using CS3 etc
Focus - Manual Mode (My 5D does not support Live View)
Exposure - ensure that Highlights are not blown & that Lowlights are not clipped
Aperture - trial and error - chimping

For Star-cluster shots:
I will just expeiment using my existing range of lenses to see what I can come up with.
As the Stars radiate very little light, long exposures will be inevitable and the recommendation to use quality tracking-mounts will prove invaluable whilst using the longer focal length lenses of 200-300mm.

Ok this gives me a starting point. So, I do not need to rush out and buy stuff! :D
(In Brazil, should I need any photographic equipment, the prices are 3-times what I would pay in the UK - so if there is anything I need then I need to know prior to travelling back there):(


"... with a clear perspective - the confusion is clearer ..."
Body: < changing >
Lenses: 70-200mm f/2.8L IS II USM, 24-70mm f/2.8L II USM
Flashguns: 580ex II x 4, MT24 macro flash
Accessories: Pkt Wiz TT5 x 5, AC3 x 2, MiniTT1 x 2, Sekonic L-758DR
Studio Lights: Godox ADpro x 3

  
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tonylong
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Jul 01, 2010 06:57 |  #13

Cham, just a couple notes!

For the moon, long is good, in fact unless you want to try renting something like a 500 or 600 for a night, I'd say you really need 400 (maybe a 100-400) and get a 1.4x TC to bump things to 560mm.

You also might want to consider shooting with the 40D rather than the 5D. The 40D will actually give you a better resolution for the moon, since it will still take up a relatively small portion of your image. The big advantage of the 5D, though, is the viewfinder -- big enough so that if you need to resort to Manual Focus the viewfinder will help a lot more than the 4D one. But try a few things -- AF, Manual Focus on Infinity (Not the symbol but the inverted L mark (read your lens manual) and Manual Focus using the viewfinder. In general the more shots you take trying various things the more likelihood of getting a set of great shots.

I mentioned ISO 100, but you can certainly go higher -- a fast shutter speed is important. And, like I said, you can get good results by slightly underexposing the orb of the moon. Unless you are very careful with those highlights it's easy to end up with some clipped ones which can look ugly. In fact, something I've done with good results is to actually meter on the moon, and center the meter so that the camera tries to render it medium -- it sounds strange for something so bright but I've been pretty satified with how well it keeps the details and shadings intact. You could, in fact, try an exposure bracketing around that setting and then you can see what works best for you.

Speed is critical not because it emits light but because it is moving, and something very important about getting a great moon shot is the ability to have sharp, crisp detail that you can enlarge and it just stands out with craters well defined and such.

Know also that from my experiece a moon shot can take a generous amount of sharpening in post processing to get that detail to pop even more!


Tony
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Tony Long Photos on PBase (external link)
Wildlife project pics here (external link), Biking Photog shoots here (external link), "Suburbia" project here (external link)! Mount St. Helens, Mount Hood pics here (external link)

  
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bsaber
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Jul 01, 2010 12:23 as a reply to  @ tonylong's post |  #14

Cham_001 wrote in post #10458605 (external link)
For the Moon shots:
Shutter Speed - Tv - 1/30 - 1/125 - faster shutter speeds because the Moon itself emits light
Other kit - Track mounts are only necessary for long exposures (5sec +) using long focal length lenses
ISO - Dynamic range retention at ISO 100
Software - Noise Reduction - eliminate in PP using CS3 etc
Focus - Manual Mode (My 5D does not support Live View)
Exposure - ensure that Highlights are not blown & that Lowlights are not clipped
Aperture - trial and error - chimping

For Star-cluster shots:
I will just expeiment using my existing range of lenses to see what I can come up with.
As the Stars radiate very little light, long exposures will be inevitable and the recommendation to use quality tracking-mounts will prove invaluable whilst using the longer focal length lenses of 200-300mm.

Ok this gives me a starting point. So, I do not need to rush out and buy stuff! :D
(In Brazil, should I need any photographic equipment, the prices are 3-times what I would pay in the UK - so if there is anything I need then I need to know prior to travelling back there):(

For the moon shots, f/8-11 is a good starting point with ISO 100 and shutter speed of 200. And for noise reduction at long exposures, make sure you do dark frames. And I agree with the notes that Tony has mentioned above.




  
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