A thread for real estate, architectural, and interior design photography

DanielSPhoto wrote in post #12369576
Of course I understand that the economy looks different in different places in the world, but if there was no sell outs, the customers would have to accept the prices.

I for one am NOT selling out. If I charged more, simple; no work! So you're approach would be suicide in my line of work. Security and real estate photography are 2 different worlds. We are talking about cheap agents. If all raised their prices here, all would be sitting on their asses. In security, if all raised their prices they would get work. Places NEED security. Agents don't "NEED" professional photos. See the difference?

So please, before you, or anyone else in this thread, throws out "sell out" statements and insulting people, stop and think first. It doesn't bode well on your character.

Like I've said now 2 times....all markets are different. If I could charge triple I would. I simple can't. Unless someone here want to pay my bills for me?

TheReal7 wrote in post #12370059
I for one am NOT selling out. If I charged more, simple; no work! So you're approach would be suicide in my line of work. Security and real estate photography are 2 different worlds. We are talking about cheap agents. If all raised their prices here, all would be sitting on their asses. In security, if all raised their prices they would get work. Places NEED security. Agents don't "NEED" professional photos. See the difference?

So please, before you, or anyone else in this thread, throws out "sell out" statements and insulting people, stop and think first. It doesn't bode well on your character.

Like I've said now 2 times....all markets are different. If I could charge triple I would. I simple can't. Unless someone here want to pay my bills for me?

First of all, I never called you or anyone else in this thread for sell out. But I know that there are sell out´s in almost every industry.
Security ain´t that different. We are working for people who are just as much cheap as real estate agents. I´ll promise you.
I also didn´t insult anyone, and I said I understand that the market is different in different parts of the world. But still it´s a fact that some people are sell out´s. Still not saying that you or anyone else in this thread are.
I still would never drop my price to the level that I almost don´t earn anything on it. If my only chance was to drop the prices that much, I would look after some other thing to do. Really, who want´s to work almost for free? Who benefits from people dropping prices? Well, the customers of course.

I don´t know why you took my post personal. It wasn´t meant towards you. It was meant in general. And you probably know as well as I do, that there is and will always be people sell out them self. I have seen it tons of time. Still I would never do it. Still not saying you do it.

So maybe it´s you who should stop and think first. Before you talk about my character. You don´t know me at all and can´t tell anything about my character.
I am a pretty nice dude you know

Oh, by the way! I took a look at your blog, and you have tons of beautiful pics. Love them.

Have a great day.
Best regards/Daniel

Sorry Daniel. I do not take your post personal. Just wanted to point out a few factoids about my market.

I did security for a very short time and know what you're talking about. There was recently a story done on exactly that. The low wages and such in the security business. One big difference is that by law establishments like night clubs and such have to have security. So if all raised their wages they'd get work. That is if there were no "sell outs". With RE there are no laws making agents use a photographer. So raising prices simply means no work. I'd LOVE to charge more but I have bills to pay. I get inquiries from other agents and it's always the same. They are blown away with my work and are extremely interested then they hear my prices (which are very moderate) and that is the last I hear from them. Keep in mind I do charge more for other photography but for RE there is a limit. You have to work in the happy medium.

I guess what irks me the most is the notion that if you charge less you're a sell out. Although that may be the case in some markets it's not that way everywhere. People like Mike are lucky that they have the clientele to pay the prices and get the work. Great for them but it simply is not the case all over the map. Not trying to point any fingers but no matter how it's worded or intended when someone says "if you charge less you're wasting your time" it comes across as negative/snobby. So it will rub some people the wrong way.

I personally have no issue with what people charge as it's their own business. If they are truly charging too little to make a living, well, then their business will fail sooner then later. I charge what my market allows me to and still make a good buck at it. If I wasn't I wouldn't be doing it.

TGrundvig wrote in post #12365756
See, on this site the guy is saying we should be making $30/hour, minimum....I'm already over that rate.

I do see what you are saying and you have a valid argument.....if the market will support it. I can assure you, there are many cities in this nation that would not support your fees. Regardless of how much the agent makes, there are some cities where they are just frugal, or cheap, each one is different. Not to mention, if they can't tell the difference between great photos and decent photos, they won't understand why they should pay more. Again, certain markets will 'get it', you are in one of those markets, I am not. I have had this conversation with so many of my agents and even with my slight price increase there year I already noticed a slight drop in orders. Clients that usually order 10+ a year have not ordered a single one this year. I call and ask and they say 'money is tight' or some other BS excuse.

You have to understand that not all markets are the same. Look up Colorado Springs real estate market and search homes over $1 million and look at how many have crappy photos taken by the agent. Do that and you will see what I am talking about. There is a mentality here that is based on fact, homes over $400k are sitting for a while and home over $1 million sit for a very long time. Therefore the mentality is 'why spend money if it is not going to sell'. I have used all the logic I can think of but when the agent knows that the odds are against them and they don't want to risk spending the money it is a hard mentality to change. I realize, they need to look at it differently, but that isn't going to change the buyers. Spending money to have someone with your skills shoot all the homes over $1 isn't going to create more buyers. The buyers are fixed and we don't have a lot of high income people coming here these days. The greatest number of increase is from military, which means homes under $250k, for the most part. Agents will not spend $500 to market a home that price, regardless of how much they make. Why would they when that price range is selling just fine?

Like I said, you are blessed to be in the market you are in. It is allowing you to work your way up into bigger and better things. Maybe one day my market will change and I will be able to do the same, but until then I do what I can and keep looking for opportunities to expand.

If you're over $30/hr, that is good. I suppose you can support a high-volume, quick and easy approach and do pretty well. I just hate to work. Like I preach, I'd rather do one $1,000 job then ten $100 jobs, and I've raised my rates accordingly.

If you can raise your rates by 30%, and only lose 20% of your clients because of it, that would be a good move. You're working less, and making more. That's the philosophy I adhere to. And I don't think you will completely LOSE those clients - they just might only use you for their bigger jobs. Simple example, but that's how I work.

Also, as cocky as it may sound, I am confident that I could go into any metropolitan/semi-urban area and continue to make a living at this. Even though this is a market with a lot of high-end properties, they aren't moving very fast. If you can convince people that your product is worth the money, they will buy it, realtors included. Believe me I get nickel and dimed day in and day out, people call up complaining that they don't want to pay full price because of this or that or something else. I have had realtors who at one point told me they would never pay me $200 to shoot a house now forking out $600 to shoot a house, it just takes time. My favorite story is that I had one realtor scoff at me when I cold called with a flyer about 10 months ago (you probably all remember that). Today she is one of my biggest clients. She needed photos ASAP one day, called me up, I photographed it for her, and she was shaky about paying the $300 for 8-10 photos. The house was sold sight unseen over the internet 2 weeks later! I **** you not. Now she uses me for everything from a $200k dogbox all the way up to her $1m+ properties.

TGrundvig wrote in post #12365689
I thought you lived in Lake Tahoe, according to this site http://www.bestplaces.​net …lifornia/south_​lake_tahoe South Lake Tahoe has 23,620 people. According to this site, South Lake Tahoe costs 28.8% more to live there. People in your area are used to paying more, which is why you are able to charge more. Go to a market where people live for a lot less and you will see they won't pay the same fees for the same work.

It is all economics, Mike. You are blessed to be in an area where people are accustomed to paying more for things than in other places. Therefore, why should your prices be any different. I know that doesn't work here because I know who my competition is here and I know what they charge. No one has a larger share of the market than me, that is just a fact. Yet, there are plenty of photogs that shoot for $65 a house. Considering how much more I charge for what I do I would say I am priced right to get so many orders and be so much higher than the others. The busiest virtual tour company in town charges between $99 and $149 per tour and even they don't do as much volume as I do.

I live in Truckee, which is about 20 minutes north of the north shore of the lake, and about 90 minutes from South Lake, and I've never ventured that far for business.

There are plenty of people out here shooting virtual tours for $60, too. Total crap. Like I said I grabbed whatever I grabbed by the horns and just was cutthroat with my pricing and business tactics. I probably burned a few bridges but now I am doing 2-3 houses per week with a minimum of $300 for 8-10 photos, and I'm looking to raise that soon. Most realtors don't opt for the 'cheap' package, but they like the lighting, long-exposure night/twilight shots, etc, that really pop off the page. That's just real estate too - I had to clear a few weeks in the upcoming months for a few commercial shoots which is great because then instead of spending 3 days shooting and 2 nights processing, I spend a week dedicated to one shoot and have full reign of what I'm doing. Can't beat it. I am always looking to expand and always have a keen eye for portfolio opportunities that will help with that. Even if I'm not getting paid extra to make something look awesome, if the opportunity is there and it will help me in the future I'll go and shoot something and pull out all the stops to throw the shot in my portfolio if it will help to expand. Sometimes realtors just want cheap shoots for big houses but I'll spend an hour on one shot getting it perfect so I can use that shot to show potential clients and help me move on to bigger and better things.

Hope that made sense, I kinda went on a tangent there.

TheReal7 wrote in post #12365285
Well, with out the extra work on the side I'd long have lost my home. Money is not great where I work and there are not much for options for other work unless I pack up and move. No desire for that. Trust me, I'd love to charge more but then I'd have no work. Sometimes you have to charge what the market will allow. Even with what I charge, I still make in the range of 40-50/hr for my time. Which is good in my books. I just need to secure more regular work. Sounds like the next few weeks I will be busy which I am looking forward to.

What I was trying to say is all markets are different. You seem to be in an area that supports the prices you charge. I am not unfortunately as I am sure others are as well. So indicating that charging less is a waist of time and people shouldn't bother unless they charge more grinds my gears a little. As it seemed to have with SeanH as well. Just my opinion

If it's not a full time job it's probably a different story. I have no idea what it's like in Canada, but I'd probably be trying different approaches (or the same, who knows) to do what I'm doing and charge through the market. There's nice houses everywhere, and there's always ways to make money if you think creatively. If you're making that hourly rate then it's all good, but it has to be for a lot of hours per week. Just look at Attic Fire - they started in Savanna, GA, a town in the middle of nowhere, with a population of only like ~130k, four hours from any major metropolitan area. Now they have pretty much taken over the world.

You're a brave man for staying up there though! Too cold for me.

Mike, I appreciate you explaining your point of view and it is comforting to hear you do have the cheap people to deal with as well. I may have to do as you did and just 'take it by the horns'. Trust me, I have thought about it for some time but I feared it could spell doom for me. Being able to stand head and shoulders above everyone else would allow me to get a grip on the ski resort towns. As you said, Attic Fire is all over the world, so that means there are people willing to pay those prices and maybe I need to think large picture and quit focusing so much on local market. I will admit, my primary focus has been on my local market and that is what drives my limitations. It may be time to sit down with some people much wiser than me and ask them what they would do in my shoes. I know some people that have global business and they are very, very successful. Maybe I can get some insight into that mindset from them and run with it. I'm not afraid of jumping on a plane to go do a shoot, it just never was my primary focus.

Thanks again for your insight.

Tyler

mikekelley wrote in post #12348178
Just got word that I scored a contract to shoot a local hospital. Interiors and Exteriors...that's what's good!

Congrats!!!!

It might be different for you- I am not sure what your home like is life, e.g. family, kids, people to support, college debt, that sort of thing. I was lucky enough to be out of debt very quickly after college, I'm a single guy with no family to support, or mortgage to pay, so my risk-aversion practices are going to be different than another person in a different situation. Fortune does favor the brave - but it can also bite you in the ass real quickly. I do know that if I had huge student loans, big credit card debt (thank god I vehemently opposed credit cards in college, only buying with cash) and/or a family or something else that took a lot of my money, my story would be very different. Being broke at 24 with no family to support and a network of people around the country who will let me stay with them is very different than being older and broke with a family/huge debt/money owed on whatever else. Hope that also helps to shed some light.

It certainly does. I will be 39 this summer, married for 11 years this summer, we have a son, and I own two homes (one primary and one rental), no credit card debt and no car loans, but I do have mortgages on my homes. So, yes, it would be a bigger risk for me but I'm sure I can separate the two entities. I think I just need to really push the upgraded photos more and demand more pay. Until that gets going I will have the other to fall back on. If I put it out there and no one bites at all, I will know that this market is just not going to support it. If they do bite, then I will take the next step and push that side of it.

I am happy right now and I don't work myself to death, so that is good. I also do not market very much because most of my clients come to me. I'm sure I could put together a portfolio and market the high end market differently. The worse thing that could happen is it doesn't take off. I will still have the floor plans, standard photos, and video in place. It's not like I would abandon something that is working, I just need to see if a transition into something bigger is possible here. I certainly have no desire to move, I love it here and my family loves it here. So, that does have a lot of weight on my decisions.

Well, I already started pushing it.

I told two agents that they really need to consider doing the upgraded photography with twilight photos. When I told them the price they both tried to say 'no' but then I cut them off and said 'look, how many homes do you see with photo like I am describing. It is time to make your listings stand out.' Then, when I told them they would not get near as many photos they both tried to back out again and so I said 'look with photos like these if you can't sell the home within the first 10 photos, you aren't going to sell the home at all.' Holy crap, it worked!!!! Well, they are hesitant about it because they have been trained to put a lot of photos online, but I got my shot and so I can only hope this works. One of the homes has been on the market for 3 years now. Oh man, if I can get my photos to sell that home I bet I can get this agent on board with the upgraded stuff on most of his listings.

Once I get the shoots done I will post the results and let you guys share your thoughts and input. I do not have a PW system and so I will have to resort to HDR. Eventually I will get a system that will allow me to try what Mike does with with mobile flash.

keyframe14 wrote in post #12366276
Since I made that comment I can tell you that this attitude works pretty well. If you are willing to work for 30$ per hour and work your ass all day, even if you're doing it for 15 years doesn't mean you're doing it right., I prefer to have less shots for over 300. My gas, expenses, time, knowledge are not gonna be sold for that little. For a house they sell for 300k they'll get 9k and let me tell you this. You work more to take those pictures than he works to show that house to few clients and fill some standard contracts. How do you feel asking them for 130$ when you know you help them get 9k?!
Mike already post the link I wanted you to read.

I probably should have covered my situation in greater detail. As I said this is strictly a side business for me. Also the homes I photograph are 98% of the time in the same city as I'm already making sales calls in. Worst case they might be 7 miles away from where I'm already at.....so gas is a min. This is also a great way for me to get a foot in the door with realtors that are not currently working with me on my real job......which is Real Estate related and is what I have been doing for the last 21 years. Not the photography part. Also keep in mind this is straight cash for me.

I'm in north county San Diego and I can tell you the tour company doing most of the work in my area charges $99. As I said mine go from $79 (under 2500 sq ft) to $129 (2500-3500), $199 (3500-4500) and over 4500 is priced after I look at it. So really I'm charging more than my biggest competitor.........at least the one that doing a lot of work. Not to be arrogant but I can probably say I know agents better than anyone in this thread. I have about 2000 active real estate agents I have been working with for 21 years. I know them VERY well and almost none would ever pay more than $400 or $500 to photography a listing. The truth of our current market is the high end stuff is just not moving. Most of the high end clients I know have tried to scale down to listing lower priced homes. Most avoid the high end homes & their costly marketing......and the fact they just aren't selling. Also I need to point out the exact 3% commission an agent makes is far from what they get. However that's a common mistake people out of Real estate make. First off, the average agent pays the office or broker they are with about 30-40% of the commission off the top. Then they have to pay all their own self employment taxes, roughly 35%. Then they also have to pay their E&O insurance for every transaction. By the time all that's taken out there's not much left. Sure if you're a broker you get 100%, but that's not the majority and they still have to pay the taxes on it. I sometimes deliver commission checks cut to agents with the broker part already taken out......trust me, they are far from what most think. I have to say in general from the above comments you know very little of what agents actually do to sell a home.

I agree that different area can fetch different prices, but in this area I would make at least double from volume of anyone trying to get over $300 to shoot 90% of what on the market. I'll stick with a great situation I have of extremely happy clients, an average of approx $1500 extra a month and a profitable way of bring in new clients to my day job. Plus, hell who turns down $30-40 bucks an hour? I've been a photographer about 30 years, 4 years of formal education including a year at Brooks. I'd be perfectly happy with $40 bucks an hour.......in today's economy. But again, I might feel different if this what what I was try to make a 100% living at.....but I'm not. However I will say I'm blown away how many of my shots have been published in high end real estate mags. The shot on the first page of my website was published 6 times and made me about $1600 of unexpected income. Not to bad for a guy that's not even trying and has never advertised once.....lol

SeanH, thanks for sharing your local insight with us. However, I do know for a fact that your assessment of their pay is not accurate for all markets. Sure, there are some agents that pay 30%, but most large companies offer a desk fee. The agent pays a monthly fee and keeps 100%. This is very common in the real estate market. Also, self employment is not 35%. Maybe for an idiot, but not a savvy business person. Most savvy self employed people get incorporated or some other form of entity to take advantage of tax breaks. That number is much lower than 35%.

With that said, yes, you are correct in the fact that they don't keep 100% of their income. But, unless they are a bottom feeder, they are taking home a lot more than you think. I work directly in the real estate industry and I have since 2002. I am a member of the local Association of REALTORS, so I know these things for certain. Now, maybe where you are things are different in how companies are set up, but the big ones RE/MAX, Keller Williams, etc, they teach the deck fee approach to entice big time agents to come over. My best client made over $500k last year and they pay a $2000 monthly desk fee to RE/MAX, that is it. So, out of $500k, they only paid $24k, which is less than 5%. They are also incorporated and therefore they get a lot of tax breaks, so they don't pay anywhere near the 35% you stated.

On the hourly pay I agree with you. If I can make $30 to $40 per hour in this economy, I will take it all day long.

On another note, I am surprised to hear San Diego is such a cheap market. I would have figured that place to be more like where Mike K is. Learn something new everyday.

SeanH wrote in post #12378696
I have to say in general from the above comments you know very little of what agents actually do to sell a home.

As a matter of fact I might know more then you think. Grundvig explain exactly what I wanted to tell you. I have lots of friends realtors and most of them pay from 1000-2000 monthly fee for desk and that's it. Most if them work with Century21, remax etc and this is a very common practice Only the beginners stay under a broker because they don;t sell enough.. and is a piece in mind to pay on percentage rather then a monthly fee whether they sell or not. Like in any other field there are good realtors and bad realtors. There are realtors that think that the pictures are not important and they grab their P&S ans snap some pictures and there are realtors that they see the value and importance of the pictures and they'll pay good money if you convince them.
Like Mike said above, I prefer to do 2 shots a week then 10 for the same money.

Grundvig and Mike , did you guys consider to attack the architectural market. That is where the money maker are. I'm thinking that at least where you live(Grundvig) architecture might go better then real estate.(I remember mike mention he might do a hospital) There are thousands of $ you can get for an architectural job.

keyframe, to be honest I have only thought about real estate and I realize I need to venture out into larger clients. I am going to have to do some brainstorming and see what I can come up with. With all the real estate agents I know here, I'm sure I could work some angles to get into commercial and then see where it takes me. I am sure you are right, architecture would pay better than real estate.....I just need to get going in that direction.