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Thread started 26 Jul 2010 (Monday) 18:49
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Sony done with Full Frame?

 
golemite
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Jul 26, 2010 18:49 |  #1

Rumors are swirling about...

I've heard from multiple sources now that Sony Semiconductor is about to drop FX sensors from their lineup. What I'm hearing is that high management in Sony is saying that full-frame cameras and sensors aren't bringing the payback necessary to make them long-term profitable. This is essentially forcing Sony Imaging to consider dropping future plans for full-frame cameras (A850, A900, and follow-ups), though I'm sure we'll still see some FF products from them that were already in progress before the stream of sensors dies out. Some of the sources for the rumor appear to be Sony employees who are lobbying for keeping full-frame in the lineup. They seem to hope that news of the impending decision on the Internet will generate a wave of protest that Sony management can't ignore.

But this has a Nikon component, too. I've been wondering why I'm not hearing rumblings on a D3xs model (the D3x uses a Sony sensor at its base). It would be due later this year (and I'm on record as predicting it to arrive in December). It very well may be that there's no new sensor for a D3xs (one would have expected video capabilities to be added). Thus, there's almost nothing else of major impact that could be added that would distinguish a D3xs from a D3x. Most of the other proposed additions could simply be firmware updates to the existing model. If we don't get a D3xs by December, we won't get one, as the D4 generation is too close at hand. Thus, it looks highly likely that Nikon's FX future is in their own hands creating their own FX sensors. Given the D3/D700 and D3s sensors, that doesn't sound like a bad thing, but it will put more pressure on Nikon to produce a high-resolution sensor, something they have not yet done (to date, all of Nikon's sensor development has been mostly targeted at low light improvements).

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Shadowblade
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Jul 28, 2010 12:31 |  #2

If Sony is done with full-frame... can Zeiss migrate to Canon and produce some AF Zeiss lenses for us?




  
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bkdc
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Jul 28, 2010 13:47 |  #3

Shadowblade wrote in post #10619145 (external link)
If Sony is done with full-frame... can Zeiss migrate to Canon and produce some AF Zeiss lenses for us?

Wouldn't that be awesome. But Canon would lose a LOT of business if Zeiss had fast autofocus lenses for full frame Canon bodies. There's no way it's happening.


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Lowner
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Jul 28, 2010 14:00 |  #4

Can anyone imagine Canon manufacturing Nikon sensors for them?

The lack of their own sensor manufacturing has forced Nikon down a very different path. A path they rightly make the best of, but I sometimes wonder if given a free hand if things would be different.


Richard

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EL_PIC
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Jul 28, 2010 14:18 |  #5
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golemite wrote in post #10607667 (external link)
I've heard from multiple sources now that Sony Semiconductor is about to drop FX sensors from their lineup. What I'm hearing is that high management in Sony is saying that full-frame cameras and sensors aren't bringing the payback necessary to make them long-term profitable. ...

Can anyone imagine Canon manufacturing Nikon sensors for them?

The lack of their own sensor manufacturing has forced Nikon down a very different path. A path they rightly make the best of, but I sometimes wonder if given a free hand if things would be different.

Lol - Sometimes "high mgt" smokes too much and free hands are not really free.
Its exec level that counts !!
Sony does a lot more than sensors for Nikon !!!

The relationship between Nikon and Sony is complex like a married couple.
It got more complex since Sony established their own line and bought Minolta.
The following is per a Yokohama Nikon VP I partied with back in early 90's - buying semiconductor equipment from ...


In the late 80’s … Nikon outsourced all camera manufacture to Sony (as well as other non semiconductor instruments to other outsource agents).
Camera outsorce was due to the thinking of 1. The film camera market was saturated and would not produce further financial expansion and 2. Intel recommended that Nikon convert all manufacture plants to producing semiconductor steppers and support equipment. Intel was Nikon’s largest client and required more equipment from Nikon ability to supply. The 90’s were a boom market for semiconductors and tools to manufacture such. But the semiconductor market went bust in late 90’s and combined with the collapse of a Nikon post optical electron beam method to manufacture next generation semiconductor chips … Nikon wrote off great losses and got back into the now boom digital camera market. They also lost market share to Canon in the 90’s due to not producing the fastest auto focus lenses. This remains why Canon leads in the sport and photo journalism field. Nikon went great guns on digital photography in the early 2000’s and has now gained some lost market share.

I no longer have inside Nikon info but ...
Sony is really a large mfg of digital cameras when you add how much they really do for Nikon. This is sensor AND Camera manufacture. Nikon designs and Sony builds with a Nikon name/logo.
If you want further - send me a private message...


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nuffi
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Jul 29, 2010 05:03 |  #6

bkdc wrote in post #10619591 (external link)
Wouldn't that be awesome. But Canon would lose a LOT of business if Zeiss had fast autofocus lenses for full frame Canon bodies. There's no way it's happening.



How much say in what Zeiss produce do Canon have?




  
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tkbslc
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Jul 29, 2010 12:14 |  #7

nuffi wrote in post #10623522 (external link)
How much say in what Zeiss produce do Canon have?

None. Sigma is a MUCH bigger threat to Canon's bottom line than Zeiss would be because Sigma competes with their whole line. From top to bottom, Sigma has a competing product. If Canon could stop someone from selling Canon mount lenses, it would be Sigma.

Zeiss would compete with a few wide to short tele L primes and that is it.


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bkdc
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Jul 29, 2010 13:28 as a reply to  @ tkbslc's post |  #8

It's really a moot point. Anyone that's handled a MF Zeiss or Leica knows that building AF into the lens would drastically alter the construction of the lens. You would go from a metal lens that's built like a tank to a lighter construction that did not tax the autofocus motor. The precise long throws of a Zeiss lens is a thing of beauty.


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Combatmedic870
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Jul 29, 2010 16:00 |  #9

I really dont see this happening...


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Shadowblade
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Jul 29, 2010 18:02 |  #10

bkdc wrote in post #10625824 (external link)
It's really a moot point. Anyone that's handled a MF Zeiss or Leica knows that building AF into the lens would drastically alter the construction of the lens. You would go from a metal lens that's built like a tank to a lighter construction that did not tax the autofocus motor. The precise long throws of a Zeiss lens is a thing of beauty.

Who said it'd need to be ultra-fast AF?

A slower, but highly accurate AF with the same long throw, with enough precision for macro, would be ideal for Zeiss, making it ideal for macro, portraiture and landscapes - where precision and IQ are paramount, but speed is not.

After all, look at the speed of the 85L...




  
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tkbslc
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Jul 29, 2010 18:48 |  #11

You can't make an Autofocus lens that has the same feel and precision as a manual focus only lens. The friction required would mean you would need a very powerful AF motor and maybe its own battery.


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MR ­ do ­ little
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Jul 29, 2010 19:01 |  #12
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Shadowblade wrote in post #10627410 (external link)
Who said it'd need to be ultra-fast AF?

A slower, but highly accurate AF with the same long throw, with enough precision for macro, would be ideal for Zeiss, making it ideal for macro, portraiture and landscapes - where precision and IQ are paramount, but speed is not.

After all, look at the speed of the 85L...


He is correct, no AF lens comes to close to the well damped focus of a MF lens period.

The build of the current Zeiss AF lenses are great, still a far cry from the ZF/ZE lenses.


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Combatmedic870
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Jul 29, 2010 19:11 |  #13

MR do little wrote in post #10627681 (external link)
He is correct, no AF lens comes to close to the well damped focus of a MF lens period.

The build of the current Zeiss AF lenses are great, still a far cry from the ZF/ZE lenses.

I guess you have never heard of the front element falling out of the CZ 135 1.8 huh? :)


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bkdc
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Jul 29, 2010 21:27 |  #14

Shadowblade wrote in post #10627410 (external link)
Who said it'd need to be ultra-fast AF?
After all, look at the speed of the 85L...

I would actually prefer the 85L be a manual focus and built like a Zeiss while maintaing the same optics. That would be a truly AWESOME lens.


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Shadowblade
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Jul 29, 2010 21:35 |  #15

bkdc wrote in post #10628360 (external link)
I would actually prefer the 85L be a manual focus and built like a Zeiss while maintaing the same optics. That would be a truly AWESOME lens.

I'd prefer an autofocus 85L, but with proper full-time manual with a decent focus ring and without the stupid electronic manual focus system that is currently used.




  
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Sony done with Full Frame?
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