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Thread started 09 Aug 2010 (Monday) 00:33
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Does the adage of Canon having better glass over Nikonhold true?

 
elitejp
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Aug 09, 2010 00:33 |  #1

To be perfectly honest i see both systems as more than adequate. I just tend to have a Canon. And can only say that i understand a little about Canon and even less about Nikon through what i have read through this forum.

So heres what i read and my question to go along with it:

POTN Fact #1 "Canon has better glass" and since bodies come and go but glass lasts a lifetime the Canon system is the better choice.

My confusion: It seems when people use this argument that they are mainly referring to the selection of canon glass vs Nikons. However I think both systems have a very good selection but Canon has a few more primes so I dont see one really being better than the other.

POTN Fact #2 "Canons glass is cheaper"

My confusion: maybe it is cheaper but from what i understand the shorter focal lengths from Nikon also are overall better IQ wise than the Canon counter-product. For example Ive heard that the Nikon version of the 24-70mm is better than the Canons. The 70-200 2.8 vr mkII version of the Nikon was also better until the Canon made their Mark II. However the prices seem to be neck and neck with these two models along with the quality of pictures. So at least in this case it is not cheaper.


Im not trying to start a huge debate but to really see if these differences are as great as what many make it out to be. Just consider this as me trying to think things through but knowing that Im probably missing a lot of very valid points.


6D; canon 85mm 1.8, Tamron 24-70mm VC, Canon 135L Canon 70-200L is ii

  
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taxsux
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Aug 09, 2010 01:29 |  #2

Canon offers you the 70-200mm in not 1, but 4 different flavours. And all of these are L lenses.

24-105 F4 IS. Many Nikonians wish they have the same. Cheap. Relatively fast constant aperture. IS.

135mm F2. Canon = AU$1,300; Nikon AU$1,800

Super fast primes. 24mm F1.4, 35mm F1.4, 50mm F1.2, 85mm F1.2. Need I say more?

24-70mm F2.8 While the Nikon version is better, the Canon counterpart is not far behind. Canon = AU$1,600, Nikon = AU$2,250

To be honest, the only lens that the Nikon is superior is the 14-24 F2.8 and the 200-400 F4.

Needless to say, I think that Nikon bodies are superior to Canon but as you said, glass is forever and I think the odds of Canon releasing a better body in the future is better than Nikon releasing lenses better than Canon.

Sorry I forgot to add that the Canon ETTL system is crap compared to Nikon ITTL that's probably you would see plenty of wedding photographers are making a switch to Nikon while I think Canon still dominates sports and motorsports shooters.




  
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ceriltheblade
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Aug 09, 2010 02:23 |  #3

no offense but why does one have to be better? they both are excellent and in the hands of someone who knows how to use them...they both put out award winning products.
are there differences? yes. are those differences important to you sepcifically? only you can say.

if the tooth fairy came to your house and switched all your canon stuff magically to nikon stuff, would you really be suffering? for the majority - i doubt it. of course there are offerings out there that are only in one system...the one that comes to my mind is the mpe-65 of canon...which no other system has...but it seems to be just an idea of different flavors in most cases....

we all give you "permission" to feel good about the system you own! :) :) :)


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toxic
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Aug 09, 2010 02:35 |  #4

I don't think anyone says Canon has better glass...the difference is the options that are available for certain types of shooter.

- Canon has a 35/1.4, 50/1.2, and 85/1.2 with no Nikon counterparts except the Nikkor 85/1.4, if that counts. Until a few months ago, Nikon did not have a 24/1.4, either.
- Nikon does not have anything like the 17 TS-E, and (from what I've heard) their existing tilt-shifts are not as well designed as the Canons.
- Nikon has no equivalent to the 60 MP-E.
- Nikon has no f/4 zooms, professional or otherwise, except the 200-400. The closest thing is midrange f/3.5-4.5 zooms.
- As a side effect of the above, there is a huge price gap between the midrange and professional lenses. For example, a 24-85/3.5-4.5 is $700, but a 24-70/2.8 is more than $1700. That's probably one reason why Nikon users tend to have more 3rd-party glass.
- Nikon SWM lenses aren't as common as Canon USM lenses.

And I guess for the sake of fairness, here are some problems with Canon...

- For a long time, Nikon had a much wider selection of DX lenses to choose from, especially standard zooms. Canon didn't fix some of that until recently, with the 15-85 and 18-135.
- Nikon had a 100 Macro (micro) VR for a long time before the 100L came out.
- Nikon has a cheap, fast, standard DX prime (35/1.8 ). The closest Canon lens is the 35/2, but it's not as cheap (at least not anymore) and is a rather long standard lens on Canon cameras.
- Nikon has a 135/2 DC (defocus control). I've no idea what it does, but Canon obviously doesn't have it.

elitejp wrote in post #10685815 (external link)
My confusion: maybe it is cheaper but from what i understand the shorter focal lengths from Nikon also are overall better IQ wise than the Canon counter-product. For example Ive heard that the Nikon version of the 24-70mm is better than the Canons.

The 14-24 is a lot better than the 16-35 but costs $300 more and doesn't take front filters.
The Nikon 24-70 is better than the Canon, but also costs $400 more.
The Nikon 17-55 is built better than the Canon but costs $300 more and doesn't have stabilization.

On the flip side, the 100-400L is better than the Nikon 80-400, and costs less.

The 70-200 2.8 vr mkII version of the Nikon was also better until the Canon made their Mark II. However the prices seem to be neck and neck with these two models along with the quality of pictures. So at least in this case it is not cheaper.

The 70-200 VR was worse than the 70-200 IS. The VR II was only out a few months before the IS II came out, and now the performance is more or less even...but only if you're willing to spend $2000+ on a 70-200, which most people aren't.

So Nikon lenses are fine, the problem is the professional lenses are pricey, they don't have equivalents to some of the shorter L primes, high-quality f/4 zooms, and some specialty lenses, and there are far fewer SWM lenses than USM ones. The advantage is a much better selection for DX users, and better optical performance in several lenses.

They do have longer warranties, though, which explains at least part of the extra cost.




  
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taxsux
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Aug 09, 2010 02:36 |  #5

ceriltheblade wrote in post #10686126 (external link)
no offense but why does one have to be better? they both are excellent and in the hands of someone who knows how to use them...they both put out award winning products.
are there differences? yes. are those differences important to you sepcifically? only you can say.

One has to be better than the other because it makes the competition strive for a better product.




  
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Kolor-Pikker
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Aug 09, 2010 03:08 |  #6

toxic wrote in post #10686160 (external link)
- Nikon has a 135/2 DC (defocus control). I've no idea what it does, but Canon obviously doesn't have it.

Actually, Canon does have one: http://www.the-digital-picture.com …oftfocus-Lens-Review.aspx (external link)
At f/2.8, it's a stop slower, though.


5DmkII | 24-70 f/2.8L II | Pentax 645Z | 55/2.8 SDM | 120/4 Macro | 150/2.8 IF
I acquired an expensive camera so I can hang out in forums, annoy wedding photographers during formals and look down on P&S users... all the while telling people it's the photographer, not the camera.

  
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ceriltheblade
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Aug 09, 2010 03:29 |  #7

taxsux wrote in post #10686162 (external link)
One has to be better than the other because it makes the competition strive for a better product.

come on.....
is pepsi better than coke (or vice versa)?

canon and nikon are different and have different products and for certain individuals one is "better" than the other...but in my eyes, at least, that doesn't make one a better product than the other.

How much would you suffer from a 7d and 70-200 2.8 IS mark II vs 300s with 70-200 VR II honestly?


7D/5dIII
50 1.8 II, MP-E65, 85 II, 100 IS
8-15 FE, 10-22, 16-35 IS, 24-105, 70-200 f4IS, 100-400 ii, tamron 28-75 2.8
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Kolor-Pikker
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Aug 09, 2010 05:41 |  #8

Well... there is the detail that at close focusing distances, the 70-200 VR II is actually more like 70-160mm, so if you're used to getting in close at 200mm, the VR II is going to disappoint.


5DmkII | 24-70 f/2.8L II | Pentax 645Z | 55/2.8 SDM | 120/4 Macro | 150/2.8 IF
I acquired an expensive camera so I can hang out in forums, annoy wedding photographers during formals and look down on P&S users... all the while telling people it's the photographer, not the camera.

  
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taxsux
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Aug 09, 2010 06:10 |  #9

ceriltheblade wrote in post #10686244 (external link)
come on.....
is pepsi better than coke (or vice versa)?

canon and nikon are different and have different products and for certain individuals one is "better" than the other...but in my eyes, at least, that doesn't make one a better product than the other.

How much would you suffer from a 7d and 70-200 2.8 IS mark II vs 300s with 70-200 VR II honestly?

Your analogies and figure of speeches astounds me. First the fairies and coke and pepsi. Come on! :lol:

#1 I highly doubt that coke and pepsi have intensive R&D to make them taste better.

#2 Stay on topic. :lol:

If you think that there's is no competition and match ups between Nikon and Canon. Not to mention adding extras and better features in their lineup to attract existing and new users. Then you are obviously kidding yourself. Please.. :lol:




  
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ScottME
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Aug 09, 2010 09:00 |  #10

taxsux wrote in post #10686495 (external link)
#1 I highly doubt that coke and pepsi have intensive R&D to make them taste better.

You'd be wrong.




  
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taxsux
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Aug 09, 2010 09:25 |  #11

Could be, but how about we stay on topic?




  
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nicksan
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Aug 09, 2010 09:43 |  #12

Let me offer up my opinion. I recently switched to Nikon after a few years using Canon. I am not brand loyal at all and just want to use gear that just works...for me. Let me also state that my switch was about cameras rather than lenses. Look at my gear list to have an idea of what I used to use with Canon and what I use now with Nikon.

elitejp wrote in post #10685815 (external link)
POTN Fact #1 "Canon has better glass" and since bodies come and go but glass lasts a lifetime the Canon system is the better choice.

My confusion: It seems when people use this argument that they are mainly referring to the selection of canon glass vs Nikons. However I think both systems have a very good selection but Canon has a few more primes so I dont see one really being better than the other.

I agree. Both system are adequate enough. However the lens lineup for Canon is much more granular and they do have more "modern" primes. But that distinction is limited to the 35mm-200mm range. (35L to 200L f2.8) Well, that's a big range, I know! If this is your sweet spot, then yes, Canon's got Nikon's number. No doubt about it.

As for zooms, they are on even ground. IMO, the 24-70 is better with Nikon. Is it $500 better? Highly debatable. The 70-200VRII is just as good. Does it have the "breathing problem"? Yes. Is the problem over-exaggerated? Absolutely. These lenses tend to "breath". The 70-200VRII "breathes" a little bit more. I have not had any issues with it. None. Zilch. I shoot it just like I used to shoot the Canon version.

As for the 24-105L, while there are rumors about Nikon coming out with a f4 zoom in that range, I don't use f4 lenses, so it's a non-factor for me. But yes, constant f4 lenses are missing from Nikon's lineup. Again, Canon is more granular in that sense. If you are looking for top quality constant f4 lenses, Canon is it.

elitejp wrote in post #10685815 (external link)
POTN Fact #2 "Canons glass is cheaper"

My confusion: maybe it is cheaper but from what i understand the shorter focal lengths from Nikon also are overall better IQ wise than the Canon counter-product. For example Ive heard that the Nikon version of the 24-70mm is better than the Canons. The 70-200 2.8 vr mkII version of the Nikon was also better until the Canon made their Mark II. However the prices seem to be neck and neck with these two models along with the quality of pictures. So at least in this case it is not cheaper.

Im not trying to start a huge debate but to really see if these differences are as great as what many make it out to be. Just consider this as me trying to think things through but knowing that Im probably missing a lot of very valid points.

It depends. I can only speak for lenses I do own. The Nikon 24-70 is better but it's $500 more. As I mentioned before, whether it's worth it or not is very debatable. The 70-200VRII is actually cheaper than Canon. So is the 200mm f2. The 14-24 is slightly more expensive than the 16-35L, but it's probably the more desirable lens. 105VR macro is cheaper than Canon. 85 1.4 D is cheaper than the 85L, although it's not in the same league as the great 85L. I won't even entertain the idea of buying Nikon's 135 f2 D lens and everyone knows how sweet the 135L is. Damn, I miss that lens! :)

So the difference really depends on what you are looking for. Again, if you love your Canon short to mid primes, stick with Canon. Nikon is way behind. Otherwise if you like your zooms with a little primes sprinkled in, Nikon has a lot to offer.




  
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Digital_zen
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Aug 09, 2010 15:57 |  #13

Give it a week...they stay about neck and neck really, right now Canon might be better overall, then next week Nikon may be, Olympus and and some other brands use some pretty nice glass as well.


You will find no more zen at the top of a mountain, than the zen that you bring there with you.

~zen proverb~

  
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eye2i
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Aug 09, 2010 16:48 as a reply to  @ Digital_zen's post |  #14

Glad this topic came up. just a few days ago, I read a random message on Facebook saying "Nikon is better because Nikkor lenses produces sharper and colorful RAW images":lol:




  
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kuwazome
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Aug 09, 2010 18:27 |  #15
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Based strictly on chart performance from tdp, Canon seems to have an upper hand
in most cases, on all the important lenses anyways (by this I mean only lenses
pros would actually use very frequently). This is mainly based on center performance,
unless they're so close that you have to compare corners.

Price should not be a factor when comparing lenses... otherwise Sigma should win -.-.

UWA Prime: Canon 14 f/2.8 II > Nikon 14 f/2.8 ...
Pretty marginal until you look at corners

UWA Prime: Canon 24 f/1.4 II ~= Nikon 24 f/1.4 ...
Very close... looks like a tie

WA Prime: Canon 35 f/1.4 > Nikon 35 f/1.8 ...
Hard to tell since the chart is sized differently, Canon has 1/2 stop advantage

General Prime: Nikon 50 f/1.4 > Canon 50 f/1.4 ...
No competition at all ... I would say its even better than Canon 50 1.2 @ 1.4 ...

Mid Tele Prime: Canon 85 f/1.2 II > Nikon 85 f/1.4 ...
Canon @ 1.2 is even better than Nikon @ 1.4

Tele Prime: Canon 135 f/2 > Nikon 135 f/2 ... No competition at all

Tele Prime: Canon 200 f/2 ~= Nikon 200 f/2 ...
Very close... looks like a tie. If you're really keen about corners then Canon has this one.

Super Tele: Canon 300 f/2.8 > Nikon 300 f/2.8 II ... No competition at all
Super Tele: Canon 400 f/2.8 > Nikon 400 f/2.8 ... No competition at all
Super Tele: Nikon 600 f/4 > Canon 600 f/4 ... No competition at all

UWA Zoom: Nikon 14-24 f/2.8 > Canon 16-35 f/2.8 II ... No competition at all
General Zoom: Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 > Canon 24-70 f/2.8 ... No competition at all
Tele Zoom: Canon 70-200 f/2.8 II > Nikon 70-200 f/2.8 II ... Only slightly @ 200

In the end though, Canon's AF on anything other than 1 or 7 series will render
whatever advantages you get from the lens useless. Or you can just spend all your
time shooting on center point and crop, which I just don't do.




  
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Does the adage of Canon having better glass over Nikonhold true?
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