60D - A disappointment?

Brianbar wrote in post #11016788
About a month ago I decided to buy the 50D after reading the specs etc. on the 60D.
Now after trying the 60D in Future Shop in Canada, I believe I did the right thing.
For me, it does not feel as comfortable to hold as the 50D, and I really did not like the on-off switch, very small toggle, I had to use my thumb nail to switch in on.

The 50D is an excellent camera, and I can see the comfort argument of the grip, but really the power switch thing on the 60D is a minor thing that I'm sure you would have got used to very quickly. I did. It's the fact it's in a different place that was more disconcerting. Unless you really have a hankering for the flip screen (I love it!) the 50D is better value. My 5D2 hasn't come out of the bag since getting the 60D though and I'm even getting back into macro

Anybody else think that there are too many different levels of camera now? I mean, previously it was:

1d
5d
XXd
XXXd

Simple progression, with discernible differences and upgrades as you went from one to the next. Now it's:

1d - 1d
5d - 5d
_______7d
xxd <
_______60d
_______xxxd
xxxd <
_______xxxxd

I mean, the biggest problem is nomenclature. The 60d isn't the successor to the 50d, period, it's a new category in between the previous XXXd and the XXd models. The increased features don't mean anything, since *every* new camera usually trounces the ones made previously, regardless of price (especially between the xxd and the xxxd range). If it had been called the "575d", nobody would have a problem with it.

Lastly, from a manufacturing standpoint, the thing I keep thinking about is "technology features are cheap, construction is expensive." When you look at the xxxd line, they either have all of the technological features of the camera above it, or have had them deliberately turned off (ISO 3200 and spot metering on the 400d, for example). Microchips are cheap to produce, but something like a magnesium body or a more robust shutter are expensive, and with the rise in materials cost (and the falling dollar), manufacturers need to get more sales revenue any way they can. If they can add technological features at little cost, and save money on something like the body, they're going to try to do it. The dollar has fallen by 20-30% against the Yen and the Chinese RMB in the last couple years, and the only reason we haven't seen a direct rise in camera prices is due to shuffling the lines around like Canon is doing.

Now whether the 60d or the d7000 is a better buy, well, that's up to far more intelligent people than me to decide.

Not really...

1D series (full frame and APS-H 1.3 crop)

5D/7D series (full frame and APS-C 1.6 crop)

xxD series (APS-C 1.6 crop)

xxxD series (Rebel APS-C 1.6 crop)

xxxxD series (not really a series, this was one model that came out years ago)

There are still 4 different model lines, 2 of which have 2 different sensor types, and 2 others that have one sensor type. The 7D is not a new line, and until there is a 1050D, I cannot see how one camera makes up a line for the xxxxD.

kumicho wrote in post #11037944
The increased features don't mean anything, since *every* new camera usually trounces the ones made previously, regardless of price (especially between the xxd and the xxxd range).

Also, this simply isn't true. Every single xxD release, the biggest complaint was that there wasn't enough change. The 30D was a warmed over 20D, the 40D added a little bit but nothing spectacular, and the 50D was probably the biggest jump up until the advent of the 60D, and it wasn't that dramatic really (added MFA and a new LCD and more resolution).

Even the 1DIII wasn't seen as a major trouncing of the IIN...

Regardless of everyone's thoughts of whether the 60D is the successor to the 50D, Canon has decided it is. You don't get to decide that. Canon has repositioned the xxD line accordingly. Also from the personal testimonies of many, the 60D does improve upon the features found in the 40D and 50D in many ways and in my book, that means successor.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #11038043
Also, this simply isn't true. Every single xxD release, the biggest complaint was that there wasn't enough change. The 30D was a warmed over 20D, the 40D added a little bit but nothing spectacular, and the 50D was probably the biggest jump up until the advent of the 60D, and it wasn't that dramatic really (added MFA and a new LCD and more resolution).

Even the 1DIII wasn't seen as a major trouncing of the IIN...

Regardless of everyone's thoughts of whether the 60D is the successor to the 50D, Canon has decided it is. You don't get to decide that. Canon has repositioned the xxD line accordingly. Also from the personal testimonies of many, the 60D does improve upon the features found in the 40D and 50D in many ways and in my book, that means successor.

Ok, so instead of "trounces", how about "more/better features"? It's like trying to compare computers / processors / ram / etc. Of course each year something is going to be faster or better, that's simply a given. Each xxxd that comes out improves on many of the technical features of the xxd before it, but I doubt that you'd claim that that any of them would be a "successor". Like I said before, technology is cheap on a per-unit basis. Construction on the other hand, is not. It's obvious that Canon had to pull cost out of the 60d; labor cost increases, material cost increases and exchange rates would have necessitated this even if they hadn't undercut the 50d MSRP by 20%.

Sorry, maybe being a product manager has made me acutely aware of things like this (pull cost out of product, follow general naming scheme, hope people don't notice), but it's just a way of doing business these days. Judging by exchange rates, Canon cameras *should* be 33% more expensive now than they were 3 years ago:

Canon pulled cost out of the manufacturing material of the 60D, it is obvious. Most of the other changes are simply software/firmware and reutilization of existing hardware from the other lines. I am also the senior product manager at my business (meaning all product changes go through me with the exception of those things that I find out later where our sales and marketing dept circumvented the process), and I also understand where they can cut the costs.

In your position, you would be painfully aware of the term "rob Peter to pay Paul", and that is most likely the other part of the equation between the 7D, 550D and 60D. Provide various features on the 7D and 550D to allow a higher price due to demand for those features, and cut back on some of those features in another line and lower the price a bit. Any time a business shifts their product alignment this way, that activity invariably takes place.

Dumb question.

Since the release of the PEN type cameras, I wonder how much they have eaten into the sales of the consumer market where Rebels were a big hit? They have an appeal to some that would only be interested in a Rebel. Weekend point and shooters.

Not saying PEN is good, Rebel bad. Just alluding to that market. Small interchangeable lens systems are becoming popular and TRENDY. Ignore that fact you may be a gear head for a moment and performance, just look at who would buy either. Without a camera to compete in that market, are they repositioning the line to make room for one? I can't see them sitting on the side watching these hot little tickets from other manufacturers sell. Gimmick or not.

I see the alignment changing.
1D for pros.
5D a line in it's own.
7D replace the XXD line.
60D replace the XXXD line.

All great cameras in their own right. The consumer, us, can't get over the new naming conventions and comparisons to the older cameras. Either way they've done some great things and beefed up performance at all levels. That 7D is smoking hot, bang for your buck in the prosumer line. 60D, previous prosumer performance more in line with Rebel prices. The older Rebel line, I don't think will be as profitable now with the new PEN type camera, those are a hot ticket right now. I see them coming out with their own to compete in that arena, and it won't be a Rebel.

Of course, my own thoughts and opinions. Anyone looking to upgrade their Rebel or 50D just got everything they wanted, and then some, except the name they wanted.

Dave.....

Once again, the rebel line IS NOT DISAPPEARING. 1) due to price and 2) due to size

There is still and will be for years to come a market for the smaller rebel series and its price range.

Canon simply took the 50D successor and broke it into two models, one to align with the 5DII and one that fills the gap left between the 550D and the 7D and put it there as the 60D.

The 60d seems to me to be a definite downgrade, for what I shoot the xxD series was really looking good when the 40D came out shooting 6.5 fps. Then it when to 6.2 with the 50D and now its only 5 fps. I was hoping for an increase in shutter speed. I guess the 40D is the camera I think is the best of this series. I would love to be able to find one new in the box. It would make a very nice remote camera.

I am very disapointed.... I was hoping to have w-lan and a great graphic card on the new body. I guess I have to wait some more years before I can play video game and make phonecalls with my camera.

JBF wrote in post #11039585
The 60d seems to me to be a definite downgrade, for what I shoot the xxD series was really looking good when the 40D came out shooting 6.5 fps. Then it when to 6.2 with the 50D and now its only 5 fps. I was hoping for an increase in shutter speed. I guess the 40D is the camera I think is the best of this series. I would love to be able to find one new in the box. It would make a very nice remote camera.

The IQ is better on the 60D especially based on the xxD owners threads that are popping up. Plus with almost twice the resolution, you get more cropping power and then throw on the wireless flash control, coupled with video, it certainly seems to be better than the 40D.

The 40D only has two things over the 60D -> mag. body and 1.2fps extra burst. Keep in mind though that you can shoot almost a 1/2 second longer in burst mode with the 60D before filling the buffer.

I've owned 30, 40, 50 and 60d... They were all great cameras in their own way but the 60 is the biggest jump upgrade wise in all the respects I care about - certainly more and a more interesting jump in features and IQ/ISO capability than between the 40 and 50d. So much of this discussion is semantics on what "upgrade" means... well anything that helps me take better pictures is that, and the articulating screen on the 60D has already helped me do that in some recent creek landscapes getting me into shooting positions and angles I wouldn't normally feel comfortable in. The feel and heft is not that much different to the 30D and anyone who says it feel more like a rebel than a xxD cannot be looking and handling all three at the same time.

Let’s try to put things in order.

The xxD series were and probably still are entry-level action DSLRs. The subsequent higher cameras are 7D and 1DMkIV. Action DSLRs are meant for freezing action, sometimes at lightening speed. All of them concentrate on capturing the shot in the first place. Accordingly their features are tailor made to meet that requirement of course with as much IQ as possible. Based on this criterion, 50D, 7D and 1DMkIV can be categorized as good, better and best action DSLRs. EOS 60D falls short in one fundamental area – the burst rate. It’s slower than its predecessor. That makes shooters unsure as to which category it might fall into.

On the other hand DSLRs like 5DMkII and 1DsMkIII are excellent indoor cameras suitable for portraiture, studio use but also appropriate for great landscape photography. Of course, still being the flagship, 1DsMkIII is a heavy duty outdoor camera as well containing one of the best weather sealings in the world.

Therefore, if u r an action/wildlife shooter, choose from 50D, 7D or 1DMkIV according to your budget. On the other hand; choose from 5DMkII or 1DsMkIII in case u r a landscape and indoor shooter. However, 1DsMkIII is the only DSLR capable of catering to all needs.

JBF wrote in post #11039585
The 60d seems to me to be a definite downgrade, for what I shoot the xxD series was really looking good when the 40D came out shooting 6.5 fps. Then it when to 6.2 with the 50D and now its only 5 fps. I was hoping for an increase in shutter speed. I guess the 40D is the camera I think is the best of this series. I would love to be able to find one new in the box. It would make a very nice remote camera.

You are clearly an action shooter first and foremost.

The 7D is the camera that Canon wants you to buy.

In all other respects the 60D is fantastic. It is an upgrade where it counts most - image quality. And it has some great features for some types of photography, i.e. macro (which is one of my favorites). The lower price is also pretty nice in my not-rich opinion.

TeamSpeed wrote in post #11039653
The IQ is better on the 60D especially based on the xxD owners threads that are popping up. Plus with almost twice the resolution, you get more cropping power and then throw on the wireless flash control, coupled with video, it certainly seems to be better than the 40D.

The 40D only has two things over the 60D -> mag. body and 1.2fps extra burst. Keep in mind though that you can shoot almost a 1/2 second longer in burst mode with the 60D before filling the buffer.

Most of my photos are for newspaper or magazine, usually 3x5". The 60D is a big difference from the 40d as far as FPS. There might no seem to be that big of a deal, but for me, the extra 1.2 per second is a big deal since I use them for remote shooting under the rail at racing events. The size of the megapixels really isn't a big deal either. I can shoot my 1d Mark IV in medium instead of large and get almost perfect shots. Same with the 7D. My 1D mark IIn is just about a perfect camera for me, 8 megapixels, 8.5 fps and fantastic color. I understand Canon wanting this megapixel war they are in, but for this sport photographer, 8 to 12 megapixels is all I need. I would love less noise. However, the Mark IIn seems to give just the right picture in jpeg or raw. I would hate to have to crop the 60D.....even the 7D I don't like cropping. No prob with the Mark II or Mark IV.