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FORUMS Photography Talk by Genre General Photography Talk 
Thread started 05 Oct 2010 (Tuesday) 16:11
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Would CCD Make a Comeback?

 
bsaber
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Oct 05, 2010 16:11 |  #1

I know the differences between CCD and CMOS sensors in terms of digital photography (the basics). From what I've read CCDs have higher dynamic range which is something we all want from our cameras. Would DSLR manufacturers ever go back to CCDs? Assuming the technology could give CCDs the same kind of high ISO performance as CMOS. What do you think and why?




  
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gonzogolf
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Oct 05, 2010 16:14 |  #2

Engineers would go to making sensors out of the eyeballs of baby seals if they could get better performance at a reasonable price. But your question doesnt really give any tangible reason to think they would go away from cmos unless there is a radical change in ccd technology




  
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Tee ­ Why
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Oct 05, 2010 16:24 |  #3

Personally, I'm not sure if CCD's have higher dynamic range in the real world. As Nikon/Sony/Pentax and others have gone from CCD to CMOS, the DR seems to have only gotten wider. I think Sony's CMOS sensor bodies have the widest DR IIRC reading the dpreview tests.

I think Canon went with CMOS initially b/c they are cheaper than CCD sensors, so with less noise and cheaper price and no real determent to DR that I can see, I don't see why they would go back to ccd.


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FrancisFortin
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Oct 05, 2010 16:24 |  #4

Who knows what the future will behold. What I think though is that they won't.

From what I know (or think I know) few DSLR bodies still use CCD sensors (ex: Nikon D60) and medium format do also (ex: Hasselblad digital backs). The problem arises in that producing CCD sensors for one is more costly and that the sad fact is that most mediums of viewing our actual pictures have a very shallow dynamic range. Most DSLR users sadly don't even post process, since most buyers are your typical mom and dad, making a high dynamic range useless for the most part.

I might just be making up that that's my two cents.


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bsaber
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Oct 05, 2010 17:52 as a reply to  @ FrancisFortin's post |  #5

gonzogolf wrote in post #11040207 (external link)
Engineers would go to making sensors out of the eyeballs of baby seals if they could get better performance at a reasonable price. But your question doesnt really give any tangible reason to think they would go away from cmos unless there is a radical change in ccd technology

Well I just wanted to see what others think. I can't really think of any real reasons for manufacturers to go back to CCDs but wanted to see what others with better knowledge would think about it.




  
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Gentleman ­ Villain
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Oct 05, 2010 18:24 |  #6
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bsaber wrote in post #11040692 (external link)
Well I just wanted to see what others think. I can't really think of any real reasons for manufacturers to go back to CCDs but wanted to see what others with better knowledge would think about it.

I've concluded that the most important difference in image quality between CMOS and CCD is in how they render texture. CMOS has a smooth and "plastic-like" way of portraying texture in comparison to CCD. Most people that prefer CCD sensors tend to believe that it is more life-like and film-like. This observation might sound controversial in a place filled with canon or nikon users, but it's commonplace thinking among users of Leicas or other CCD sensor based cameras.

Texture is a matter of perception and experience and not every person is going to see it the same way. The vast majority of digital cameras are CMOS based so most photographers have only experienced one sensor and have little real basis for comparison with CCD. I'm inclined to believe that the majority of photographers in the future will not be aware that these differences in texture rendition exist between sensors. For this reason, it's possible that demand for CCD will probably continue to be small.

Live view and video are features that are going to become more important for digital cameras of the future. From what I understand, it's not always practical to combine these features with CCD sensors because of heat generation problems. CMOS seems to have the future advantage in terms of providing live-view and video.

Can CCD make a comeback? Well, it's definitely still popular with photographers working in higher priced gear like Phase One, Leaf, Hasselblad, Leica etc. I'm not really certain if that will translate into a comeback or just a steady demand. Many medium format users prefer CCD for texture rendition but also would like a practical live view availability for focusing. My belief is that the real test for CCD vs CMOS will come when one of the major DMF camera or back makers switches to CMOS. If the switch proves to be popular then the days of CCD could be numbered. However, if any kind of switch proves unpopular then it probably would secure CCD's role in future cameras. Time will tell :D




  
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Dmab
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Oct 05, 2010 18:50 |  #7

Just for clarity, what was the last Canon or Nikon camera that had a CCD sensor?


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bsaber
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Oct 05, 2010 19:11 |  #8

Gentleman Villain wrote in post #11040854 (external link)
Texture is a matter of perception and experience and not every person is going to see it the same way. The vast majority of digital cameras are CMOS based so most photographers have only experienced one sensor and have little real basis for comparison with CCD. I'm inclined to believe that the majority of photographers in the future will not be aware that these differences in texture rendition exist between sensors. For this reason, it's possible that demand for CCD will probably continue to be small.

Live view and video are features that are going to become more important for digital cameras of the future. From what I understand, it's not always practical to combine these features with CCD sensors because of heat generation problems. CMOS seems to have the future advantage in terms of providing live-view and video.

Can CCD make a comeback? Well, it's definitely still popular with photographers working in higher priced gear like Phase One, Leaf, Hasselblad, Leica etc. I'm not really certain if that will translate into a comeback or just a steady demand. Many medium format users prefer CCD for texture rendition but also would like a practical live view availability for focusing. My belief is that the real test for CCD vs CMOS will come when one of the major DMF camera or back makers switches to CMOS. If the switch proves to be popular then the days of CCD could be numbered. However, if any kind of switch proves unpopular then it probably would secure CCD's role in future cameras. Time will tell :D

I never knew that about the textures. That's definitely something I want to see for myself. I doubt that any of the mentioned higher priced brands are going to switch to CMOS anytime soon simply because of what you said about the textures.

Dmab wrote in post #11040997 (external link)
Just for clarity, what was the last Canon or Nikon camera that had a CCD sensor?

IIRC the Nikon D3000 is a CCD.




  
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nate42nd
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Oct 05, 2010 20:05 |  #9

There is a new technology. I don;t know if anyone has mentioned it as I have not read this whole thread, but

Quantum film

Search for it. It is Very cool and may be the next thing we use in a few years. A lot of people seem to think it will be. Here is one example.

http://www.eetimes.com …-replace-CMOS-image-chips (external link)


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Photon ­ Phil
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Oct 05, 2010 20:08 |  #10

Well, My D70 has a CCD and has some nice atributes.


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Mick_I
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Oct 05, 2010 20:34 |  #11

The Leica M9 has a Kodak CCD and the color's are amazing. Technically the CCD is a superior sensor.


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nate42nd
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Oct 05, 2010 20:44 |  #12

Mick_I wrote in post #11041646 (external link)
The Leica M9 has a Kodak CCD and the color's are amazing. Technically the CCD is a superior sensor.

There are benefits, but technically superior? Maybe. The VERY good ones.

The good CMOS sensors have benefits as well.


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egraphdesign
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Oct 05, 2010 20:59 |  #13

Dmab wrote in post #11040997 (external link)
Just for clarity, what was the last Canon or Nikon camera that had a CCD sensor?

Both Manufactures still use them.

Jim




  
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pcunite
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Oct 10, 2010 15:13 |  #14

Dmab wrote in post #11040997 (external link)
Just for clarity, what was the last Canon or Nikon camera that had a CCD sensor?

The original 1Ds had a CCD sensor I think.




  
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toxic
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Oct 10, 2010 23:12 |  #15

Point-&-shoots typically use CCD. More expensive ones and SLRs typically use CMOS. The last (only?) Canon SLR to use CCD was the 1D.

CMOS has two advantages: faster data transfer and less heat. CCD can be considered the superior technology because all of the highest quality imaging equipment use them (e.g. astronomical equipment), but for whatever reason, CMOS has lended itself much better for consumer use.

MFDBs and Leica use CCDs because they all get their sensor from Kodak. Whether Kodak made a specific decision to only make CCD, or if they only do so because they're incapable of making a quality CMOS sensor, I don't know. In any case, Kodak's sensor design/tech/fab is way behind Sony/Nikon/Canon, so whatever theoretical advantages CCD and MF sensors have are largely lost. For example, MF sensors would theoretically have much better high ISO performance than APS-C sensors...but they don't, and it's not even close.




  
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Would CCD Make a Comeback?
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