Is the US Government going too far with security??

This topic has been addressed before but I'm bringing it up again after being stopped, once again, by security while shooting on public property. Over the last 8 months or so, I've been shooting much of my city with my interest being in interesting architecture. We have some really interesting city and state buildings near to where I live but since I've started this little "project", I've discovered that setting up a tripod and pointing a camera at a government building will quickly capture the attention of security. Today, I was photographing our downtown area and stopped to take a break in a public area when my wife texted me. I opened up my tripod and set it down to text back to my wife.....unknowingly, my camera was pointed towards the city courthouse. Within minutes, a security guard was there asking as to why I was taking pics of the courthouse. Well, I wasn't....I was just taking a break. I hadn't shot a single pic of the courthouse. I was polite and explained to him that I wasn't taking pics but taking a break....but so what if I was taking photos (at least that's what I'm thinking).....I'm certainly within my rights to do so aren't I? This isn't the first time I've been stopped....I had just recently been stopped for taking pics of a VA hospital and the security guard made me delete the photos while he watched to make sure I did so.
Over the past several months, I've been stopped, questioned and, at times, been told to delete photos over and over. It's to the point that I almost feel like a criminal when I'm carrying my camera. Set up a tripod and point the camera at a government building and you'll pretty much be ensured that security will be arriving within the next few minutes.
I have no problem with security asking questions but when they tell me to move on and to delete perfectly legal photos, well, that just isn't right. For now, I politely give in to their requests simply because I don't have the time or desire to push the issue (maybe someday). It just upsets me that I'm made to feel as if I'm doing something wrong when I'm absolutely not.

OK...rant over....I feel better now

Perhaps you could start by mentioning which particular government to which you refer...

I would say no. But they have gone to far with the illusion of security...... Ever notice how you allways hear about people/things they miss. But never hear about ones they catch?.... Im just sayin....

jra wrote in post #11042257
For now, I politely give in to their requests simply because I don't have the time or desire to push the issue (maybe someday).

This is why they keep doing it.

AdamC wrote in post #11042290
Perhaps you could start by mentioning which particular government to which you refer...

Well, he's in Ohio (USA), which means the US government. Chances are, if he's taking pics of a county building, then a county deputy is most likely the security he will run into. If he's snapping pics of a federal building, then most likely, it's a government security contractor who is handling security. Local buildings usually have local cops as their security or a private security company.

In Australia we can fly over Parliament house, take pictures of it, climb the roof even! Hahaha

stand up for your rights and you won't feel so bad......your choice

photoguy6405 wrote in post #11042640
This is why they keep doing it.

I agree. It's easier to just give in rather than "push the issue". I've often contemplated it but the potential outcome could be ugly (at least that's what goes through my head). The possibility of being arrested for refusing to comply and then being charged with some off the wall charge such as disrupting the peace. Then my car gets towed because the meter ran out. Then I would have to go to court, hire a lawyer, miss work.....etc.

I've thought that maybe the better way to go is to approach our police department and/or local officials and hopefully get the issue clarified and have the security at these areas notified that taking photographs of government buildings is perfectly legal. And while some questioning on the part of security is a good thing, they shouldn't prevent people from taking photos or demand that photos be deleted when they were taken in a legal manner from a public place. Honestly, I think it's just a matter of some security and officers not being properly informed.
It's just frustrating to be made to feel like a criminal when I'm a law abiding, freedom loving citizen acting well within my rights.

jra wrote in post #11043976
I agree. It's easier to just give in rather than "push the issue". I've often contemplated it but the potential outcome could be ugly (at least that's what goes through my head). The possibility of being arrested for refusing to comply and then being charged with some off the wall charge such as disrupting the peace. Then my car gets towed because the meter ran out. Then I would have to go to court, hire a lawyer, miss work.....etc.

I've thought that maybe the better way to go is to approach our police department and/or local officials and hopefully get the issue clarified and have the security at these areas notified that taking photographs of government buildings is perfectly legal. And while some questioning on the part of security is a good thing, they shouldn't prevent people from taking photos or demand that photos be deleted when they were taken in a legal manner from a public place. Honestly, I think it's just a matter of some security and officers not being properly informed.
It's just frustrating to be made to feel like a criminal when I'm a law abiding, freedom loving citizen acting well within my rights.

Send a letter to the Chief of Police or DA in your area asking for a clarification of policy (enclose a copy of the "photographers rights" and whether any of the areas mentioned come under "National Security". Once you have that clarification, keep a copy and show any "rent a cops" or deputies that they do have no reason to stop you and that any request for deletion of photos is actually illegal.

Not had that problem myself, we seem to be able to photograph almost anything here (in Scotland anyway) but that is how I would tackle it.

asysin2leads wrote in post #11043085
Well, he's in Ohio (USA), which means the US government. Chances are, if he's taking pics of a county building, then a county deputy is most likely the security he will run into. If he's snapping pics of a federal building, then most likely, it's a government security contractor who is handling security. Local buildings usually have local cops as their security or a private security company.

Good point about cops vs private security, maybe the OP can clarify this as well? I can definitely picture these situations unfolding with police or other 'government security' at a public building. I don't think I'd push that issue either, but I can't imagine deleting pictures at the request of a private security guard.
The private guards are pretty much just limited to asking you to leave. Anything beyond that and they need to call the cops themselves. Obviously that's an over-simplification, but you get my point.

Arguing the point in person one on one would end up in one on 5 or more I think in most cases.
You could end up going to court as you mention or worse getting beat down thrown in jail and then going to court, The ACLU may come to your defense. You may or may not win when it come to your point but either way you would lose lost wages etc.

I would say go to the locations you plan to photograph before hand and ask permission, that may work.
You could also inquire about past harassment by phone or in person to determine in you were in the right legally.

I do IT work and go to all sorts of facilities DOD, federal court houses, post offices, hospitals.......... appearance is the key and here is a example a couple years ago I had a contract to install new network printers for HP in several post offices the first one I did I kept getting stopped in the hall and asked who I was and what I was doing there, I went home that night and made an HP ID and never had another problem while on that project. I know carry ID from Cisco, IBM, HP and my own company. If you have your own company make yourself an ID badge.

One last tip in the old days they use to either take your film or make you expose it these days they tend to ask you to delete nice thing about digital you can run card recovery software and undelete your files as long as you have not over written the files.

I hope there is some useful info there.

Jim

In the UK, you can photograph more or less any building you want - Parliament, the Supreme Court Building, Royal Courts of Justice etc etc with no problems. And the police (or anyone else for that matter) have absolutely no right to confiscate equipment or ask you to delete images without a court order.

If you are on public property, the the security guard is taking care of private property he has no jurisdiction. You should never ever erase images that you took just because someone demanded you do so. If they want to call the police let them. No need to get confrontational, or loud. If a sworn police officer requests your ID then present it. In CA if an officer requests your ID for no reason you have the right to refuse, provided you have not broken the law or are not under investigation for a crime.

The very best idea presented here is to go down to city hall and make an appointment with the local DA and get your areas rules and regs for amatuer photography from a public place. Get a business card, make sure that you show some images of the stuff you have shot, and make it a sharing and learning situatuon not a confrontation. Then when you get stopped by either a security officer or a police officer you have already done the due diligience in advance. You can tell them you spoke directly with the DA, found out what the local ordinances were and are doing your best to comply while still exercising your First Amendment rights of free speech.

In confrontations you will most surely lose, but in sharing, with others, being forthcoming with what you do you can make it a learning situation. BTW get a few shots of the police officer posed by the car and drop them off at their office. I have been doing that for years and airshows and even shooting bikini shoots in downtown San Jose. You'd be suprised how far that goes, towards making friends with those in blue.

There is only one circumstance in the US in which you can be compelled to delete your images: That is on certain areas of certain military installations where the commander can require you to delete images of areas with posted No Photography signs.

There is NO other circumstance in the United States where any security or police personnel can compel you to destroy your personal property (which is what your images are). They may be able to arrest you for other reasons (such as refusing to "move along" when ordered), but even then they do not have the authority to compel you delete delete your images.

Even if they arrest you (or specifically, if they arrest you) they can then take your camera into custody, but they certainly cannot delete the images because those become evidence and must be held for the court.

Remember that Security officers only have jurisdiction over private property. There are some unusual exceptions to this, but they are NRC or DoD related. In most states a security officer cannot place you under arrest unless you commit a felony and they witness it. In California Security officers can get into a boat load of trouble for attemtping to arrest someone for anything other than a felony. The only exception to that are Mall officers who are allowed to arrest for lesser charges like shoplifitng etc.

Under no circumstances do they have the right to remove your gear from you, request for you to erase your shots or take you into custody just for shooting images, especially from public places. Most states require a license, require training, and or classes and require extensive background checks. Now in CA you can get the name of the security officer, and look up their license and comlain directly to the state if they overstep their authority, which amounts to a citzens arrest.