FF or crop camera for airshow photography?

Hi, I'm new to this forum, and have some questions about Canon gear.

I had an impression that for airshow photography (flying aircraft), an APS 1.6 or 1.3 camera would be preferred over a full frame camera because of the extra reach the crop sensor provides. So I began to do research on Canon's 7D and 1DmkIV bodies.

But after pouring over many sample photos on the net, I see full frame bodies being used with great results. Cameras like the D3, A900, and 5DII have been used to produce excellent images. And in many cases FL no greater than 400mm are used.

So now I wonder if I should think about this a second time. Perhaps I should take the 5DII into consideration.

Your opinions are welcome.

BTW, this is the Canon gear I've been considering, so far:
7D, 1DmkIV, 100-400L, 400 f5.6, 300 f2.8, 1.4x extender.

I just got the 7D a couple of weeks ago and I can say with the 100-400mm, it is great. The crop sensor gives the "illusion" of a longer focal length, and doesn't really change it. The 7D has a frame rate of 8 shots per second which will help with the fast moving planes. I don't know how much experience you have with DSLR's, but I think you should get whichever camera you choose well ahead of time to familiarize yourself with it before attending the airshow.

You don't have to have mega frames per second to shoot air shows.

If you have an understanding of the subject and if you know their routines or formations and can anticipate what's coming, you're fine with a FF body like the 5DMkII.

Any loss in "reach" can be made up in cropping power.

What high frame rates can do for you is they expand the window of opportunity to nail crossing shots or other iconic maneuvers (TBirds Calypso Pass, BAs Double Farvel, etc...)

Perfectly Frank wrote in post #11054799
Your opinions are welcome.

BTW, this is the Canon gear I've been considering, so far:
7D, 1DmkIV, 100-400L, 400 f5.6, 300 f2.8, 1.4x extender.

Honestly you can't go wrong with just about any of these at an airshow. I've shot everything from a Rebel XT with a 70-200 to a MKII with a Sigma 150-500.

I'll be heading to Dobbins next week and have a 7D with a 300 f/2.8 loaner, plus hopefully my MKII is back from Canon. So I'm thinking of using the MKII with the 300 f/2.8 plus a 1.4x TC and my 70-200 f/4 on the 7D.

I love the flexibility of a zoom for airshows and IS really helps when you use slow shutter speeds for prop blur, so if anything I would maybe not consider the 400 f/5.6 as it has no IS.

Thanks folks, for the answers.

I've been an Olympus user for about 3 yrs. I've photographed two airshows so far, and it's a lot of fun. Oly's lenses are acutally very good, but their cameras are not the best for fast AF, especially my E-620. That's why I'm looking into Canon and Nikon. Also, a lens such as the 100-400L will provide me with a bit more reach than what my Oly can provide.

As far as using a FF like the 5DII, I don't know how much crop I can get away with until the point of image degradation is noticable.

Just out of curiosity, money no concern, what would be your ideal airshow setup?

BTW, here's my airshow shot taken with my E-620, 50-200 & 1.4x

http://www.flickr.com …in/set-72157624973762719/

Despite money actually being an object, I shoot most aviation events with:

1DMkIV + 500mm f/4L IS (I also have a 300mm f/2.8L IS + both TCs if I want to experiment with focal lengths)
1DMkIII + 70-200mm f/2.8L IS
24-70mm f/2.8L
17-40mm f/4L
580EXII Flash + OC Cord

I used to own a 5D Classic as well as a 40D so I've tried all three "flavors" of sensor at one time or another but I've found APS-H to be the perfect compromise.

Click the Crosswind Images link below for a taste of my efforts.

I found that shooting against the sky the underside of the planes gets underexposed and noisy when lifted in PP.

Whatever you can do to get more light in. I don't think crop is an issue for modern FF.

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #11061865
Despite money actually being an object, I shoot most aviation events with:

1DMkIV + 500mm f/4L IS (I also have a 300mm f/2.8L IS + both TCs if I want to experiment with focal lengths)
1DMkIII + 70-200mm f/2.8L IS
24-70mm f/2.8L
17-40mm f/4L
580EXII Flash + OC Cord

I used to own a 5D Classic as well as a 40D so I've tried all three "flavors" of sensor at one time or another but I've found APS-H to be the perfect compromise.

Click the Crosswind Images link below for a taste of my efforts.

I came across your site a while back - I bookmarked it! Great photography!

You sure have a great selection of gear available. But to be honest, on many of your images I can't see much difference between your 40D and 1D4, all provide excellent photos. Even your 20D does a nice job. But that may be due to me viewing these on a laptop screen.

Only thing I see missing from your gear lineup is a FF and zoom. Guess you prefere primes.

I'm thinking that if I go with Canon, perhaps I'll go all-out and get the 1D4, along with the 100-400L. Your opinion on that?

Many thanks!

Perfectly Frank wrote in post #11062268
I came across your site a while back - I bookmarked it! Great photography!

You sure have a great selection of gear available. But to be honest, on many of your images I can't see much difference between your 40D and 1D4, all provide excellent photos. Even your 20D does a nice job. But that may be due to me viewing these on a laptop screen.

Only thing I see missing from your gear lineup is a FF and zoom. Guess you prefere primes.

I'm thinking that if I go with Canon, perhaps I'll go all-out and get the 1D4, along with the 100-400L. Your opinion on that?

Many thanks!

I also have a 100-400 and it's a very handy lens. Very versatile.

I tend to use both a crop and a full-frame together at airshows.

Up until now my standard airshow setup has been a 30D with a 100-400, and a 5D with a 24-105. Previously I used the 30D with a 300/4, but found that sometimes it was too short, and sometimes it was too long hence the 100-400.

Tomorrow I'll be shooting with a 1D3/100-400 combo for the first time along with the 5D/24-105. Should be interesting.

Perfectly Frank wrote in post #11062268
I came across your site a while back - I bookmarked it! Great photography!

You sure have a great selection of gear available. But to be honest, on many of your images I can't see much difference between your 40D and 1D4, all provide excellent photos. Even your 20D does a nice job. But that may be due to me viewing these on a laptop screen.

Remember that most people only display their best images. Most Canon cameras offer excellent IQ when using good glass. The difference in cameras isn't the IQ (well, high ISO noise is), but the things that make using the camera more pleasurable. Better and faster AF means more keepers. More custom functions lets you setup your camera the way you like it. Some of my best and most favorite images came from my Rebel XT, but I have no intentions of selling my MKII to get a Rebel again.

If money is not a concern I would consider a two camera setup. Use the MKIV with a nice prime like the 300 f/2.8 or 500 f/4, then have another camera (7D perhaps) and a 70-200. This allows great flexibility and better IQ.

In2Photos wrote in post #11065807
Remember that most people only display their best images. Most Canon cameras offer excellent IQ when using good glass. The difference in cameras isn't the IQ (well, high ISO noise is), but the things that make using the camera more pleasurable. Better and faster AF means more keepers. More custom functions lets you setup your camera the way you like it. Some of my best and most favorite images came from my Rebel XT, but I have no intentions of selling my MKII to get a Rebel again.

I show every frame I shoot...

I would suggest putting the 70-200 on the MkIV and the long prime on the MkIII.

You can crop the MkIV if you need to but the 300 + TC or 500 probably won't need much cropping!

First of all, many thanks for all the replies. Much to think about!

To Jay, I just spent another hour on your site, lusting over your aviation photos. After looking at yours and others on the net, I've come to some conclusions on which gear might be best for me...

Lens:

300mm f2.8 and 1.4x extender (maybe the 2x also). Hand-holdable and produces razor sharp images. Top notch quality lens. With the 1.4x would give me 300mm and 420mm of reach. That should be plenty of reach for now.

70-200mm f2.8 for an all around zoom. Combined with the 1.4x brings me to 280.
This lens I would buy at a later date, as things are starting to get a bit expensive

This represents some of the best glass that Canon offers. I'm thinking this two lens setup would be better than the 100-400 in terms of speed and IQ (not that the 100-400 is bad by any means). The loss of zoom versatility in the 300-400 range would be a challenge, but something I believe I can work around.

Camera:

This is a tough one. My heart says the 1d4, my brain says the 7D.
For airshow photography, do I really need a $5k camera? Will I see much difference in IQ between the two? Should I buy the 7D and use the savings to buy the 70-200 f2.8 ?
The 1D4 is in my buget, but if I don't use all of its performance, I would be wasting money. Gotta think about this some more!

Sorry for the long post. Your opinions are welcome.

Thank You for the nice comments.

Given the generally mid-day nature of airshows, I think you'd be perfectly happy with a 7D.

Bear in mind that in this case, your math with the 300 would be: 300 * 1.4X TC * 1.6X for APS-C! I personally reached the conclusion that the 2X TC caused just enough of an IQ hit with the 300 f/2.8 that I needed more native reach which is why I added a 500 f/4. Don't hesitate to give it a try though. The images are good, but less glass in the way of the light is always a plus.

I also like the 70-200 as a secondary lens on the flight line for capturing stuff taxiing past and the like. Also handy for larger formations like the Snowbirds or six-ship delta of the TBirds or Blue Angels.

I think your thinking is solid.

Update: Just bought the 7D & 70-200 f2.8 IS II today.

Now I gotta learn how to use it. Can't wait till the new 2x III extender hits the shelves.

I'm so excited that I had to tell somebody!