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Thread started 29 Oct 2010 (Friday) 13:57
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What has been lost?

 
sabianq
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Oct 29, 2010 15:04 |  #16

RTPVid wrote in post #11188695 (external link)
Ramblings of a photo hobbyist from the 70's...

As an old photography hobbyist from the film days finally deciding to move into the DSLR realm, after a number of months of examining options and how to build a DSLR system that at least meets the flexibility and performance of my old film system, I'm struck with how much has been lost to photo hobbyists with the 40 year gradual move from manual-focus film systems to the DSLR world.

1. Cost.

Compared with film systems, DSLR bodies and lenses are breathtakingly expensive, even accounting for inflation.

i would propose that the cost has actually gone down.
as pointed out earlier in another post..
the cost of film and dark room chemical was quite high.
it was easy for me to spend about a thousand dollars in a year for film and devlopment alone, not to mention the effects on health and the fact that bad and unusable images cost the same ad a good useable image when it come to developing and initial price of the unexposed film roll.
while a DSLR can cost a lot up front, the cost over time is way less.

also being an old film guy like me, if you shot with nikon or minolta, you can get the same body and use your old lenses which further reduce the initial investment.

2. Size and weight.

DSLR bodies are considerably larger and heavier than film SLR bodies were. It has even come to the level of perversity that this size and weight is looked upon as an advantage or a status symbol. The old Nikon F was not appreciably larger nor heavier than a Honeywell Pentax Spotmatic (showing my age with that brand name...) or Minolta SR-T 101, although the F could be "gripped" (F-36 motor drive) into quite a monster for the times.

Likewise, the auto-focus and IS lenses are large, heavy monsters or cheap plastic lightweights. The hobbyist lenses of the film age were light, excellent performers, AND rugged.

this is true to a point.. some manufactures are making their DSLR bodies smaller and lighter. the olympus DSLR is tiny and very light compared to other manufactures.

and the rangefinder cameras with a full frame sensor are still the same size as their 35mm counterparts.
in the medium format world, the camera body has stayed the same.

3. Death of wide angle.

Well, "death" is overstating a bit, but since you need a trust fund to afford full frame digital, it is beyond the reach of most hobbyists, leaving us with APS-C sensors. My film camera gear included a 24mm and a 20mm prime. The 24mm was one of my most heavily used lenses. Both were reasonably priced, small, and reasonably fast. To match that on an APS-C body, I need to be looking at a 15mm and 12mm lens. None are either small OR reasonably priced, since they are in the category of extreme wide angle lenses. A 12mm prime does not even exist in EF mount. Is there a 15mm prime that is NOT a fisheye? If you have a couple of extra Grover Clevelands laying around, you can get a 14mm non-fisheye prime, but, as I said... hobbyist.

yes, the wideangle lens is affected by the size of the sensor (crop multiplication)
however, DSLRs do come with full frame sensors that have the same surface area as a 35mm.. such a full frame camera will have the same performance optically as a 35mm system.
and the cost is going down too.. aside from nikon, canon and sony make very afordable full frame camera bodies.

Speaking of that, why are there no inexpensive manual focus, manual aperture, non-IS lenses that still couple with the camera's metering system? (i.e. I can set the aperture on the lens, but the camera knows what the aperture is set to for metering purposes so I can focus wide-open?)

I realize I'm hopelessly nostalgic / living in the past, but even so, I'm having a hard time coming to the conclusion that the losses (small, light, rugged bodies; light, reasonably priced excellently performing wide angle primes, etc.) are worth it.


leica makes a very manual ff camera the m9
and if you shot medium format, you can keep your camera and just buy a digital back to replace the film..

cheers!


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hella ­ 325
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Oct 29, 2010 15:05 |  #17

thanks are they easy to swap back? b/c I tend to use spot metering and central metering a lot. But it would be fun to get some samyang manual primes and a split prism and have a nostalgic walk around the town.

Wilt wrote in post #11189009 (external link)
  • Easy to install in the prosumer and pro bodies
  • Will not affect AF
  • But will affect spot or central metering especially with lenses slower than f/2.8


(sorry for the minor hijack)


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gonzogolf
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Oct 29, 2010 15:07 |  #18

hella 325 wrote in post #11189048 (external link)
thanks are they easy to swap back? b/c I tend to use spot metering and central metering a lot. But it would be fun to get some samyang manual primes and a split prism and have a nostalgic walk around the town.

You might want to consider getting a 5D, or 5DII. The bigger brighter viewfinder make manual focus significantly easier. Given how easy it is to autofocus I dont see going back, but when I do play with it the 5D is so much brighter than the XXD bodies.




  
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Oct 29, 2010 15:23 |  #19

To address the apparent size and weight issue...

Pentax Spotmatic: 143mm x 93mm x49mm (body only); 642g body only
Olympus OM-1: 136mm x 83mm x 50mm (body only) 81mm with lens; 680g body only
Minolta SRT101: 145mm x 95mm x 89mm with lens (no spec avail w/o lens); 705g
Nikon F3: 148mm x 96mm x 65mm; 705g

Canon 7D: 148mm x 111mm x 74mm; 820g

Canon prosumer body needs to go to the fat farm in comparison


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Oct 29, 2010 16:29 as a reply to  @ post 11188793 |  #20

I share your nostalgia. I loved the big bright viewfinder with micro-prism focusing, the manual lenses where precise focusing was possible because the focus ring was almost a full turn.

At the same time, I know why the DSLR is so full of "stuff":

  • My film SLR has a button cell battery to power the TTL center-the-needle exposure. DSLR cameras have a button cell battery for timekeeping plus a large lithium ion battery to power everything else.
  • The motor to advance the film and cock the shutter is my thumb on my film SLR. On DSLR cameras, the "film" is now a CF card, but it requires a nesting space with connector, and high speed electronics for writing image data to the card. The simple solenoid motor to cock the shutter for the next shot is now an internal mechanism and the shutter itself is now a more bulky metal blade contrivance rather than the simple fabric curtain of film SLR cameras.
  • The motor to adjust the focus of my film SLR is my right hand thumb and index finger. On DSLR cameras more electronics are needed to send a signal to a small motor inside the lens to perform this task. In order to detect focus, the DSLR camera has a focus detection sensor and associated electronics.
  • In order to set the aperture on my film SLR, I use the same thumb and forefinger as above to turn the aperture ring on the camera. On the DSLR camera, a Mode knob, thumbwheel, and possibly push buttons as well as associated electronics get into the act to make things "simpler".
  • On my film SLR, the ASA knob did not do anything except change the gain of the TTL center-the-needle exposure sensitivity. On DSLR cameras, a lot of built-in firmware (ROM takes up space, too) tells the computer what to do and additionally changes analog gains for the signals being read off the sensor before being converted to digital when you change something called "ISO". DSLR cameras don't really have ASA or "ISO" in the same sense that film does, but it is something sorta' like it.
  • On my film SLR, the shutter speed is set with a knob that controls the delay between first and second curtain. The DSLR camera does not have a dedicated shutter speed knob, so it has to hitch a ride on the same thumbwheel as the aperture setting is done. In place of simple mechanical timing, the DSLR camera uses complex electronics to compute signals to send to the solenoid motor for the metal shutter "curtains".
  • With my film SLR, I can take the exposed roll of film to the lab and and then check out the results a few hours later. DSLR cameras have their own photo lab that is stuffed inside the camera which enables us to waste time see how well we did (or didn't do).
  • When shooting film, there is the choice of indoor or outdoor film. Film sees color in much the same way that our eyes see color. With digital, it is necessary to either compute or twiddle with white balance and then try to figure out what we really want and then wonder why metamerism is such an issue with digital sensors.
  • If I want to use flash with my film SLR, I stick my Vivitar 285 on the hot shoe, use the little circular calculator on the side of the strobe to determined the flash power, set the camera accordingly and then shoot (hoping that nobody has nodded off in the meanwhile). With DSLR cameras, there is a built in flash that takes up space or an external flash which is automatically coupled to the camera so that no knob twiddling or head scratching is necessary.
  • I used to think that my film images were sharp -- I usually shot chromes. Comparing those old images to what I get from my complex, heavy, expensive DSLR equipment, I am blown away by the clarity and sharpness of the fancy new stuff. While the dynamic range of digital is not up to what film can do, it is not a problem in the majority of cases.
  • One more point -- with digital, it is not necessary to buy film and pay for processing. Somebody forgot to mention the cost of computers, CF cards, software, printers, paper, and ink (not to mention the cost of the camera and lenses).
Would I go back? Not very likely. Do I miss film? A little, but to quote an old saying, "nostalgia ain't what it used to be". I might add, "furthermore, it never was".

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Jon
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Oct 29, 2010 16:41 |  #21

When you're comparing the size and cost, don't forget to add in all those rolls of film you'd need to handle the same number of shots you can cram onto an 8 GB card (I make it 10-11 rolls of 36 exposures each in my old New F-1 to match what I can get on my 5D2. Figure what. $10-$15 a roll to cover the film and processing? So a 5D2 costs about what (not adjusting for inflation) a New F-1 and 120 rolls of film would have back in 1980. And that's before I add a winder to the F-1, yet it's built in to the 5D2 (and twice as fast as the F-1's winder). It's pretty close to the same size, too.

As to the lenses, it's the AF motors and motorized diaphragms that have added the bulk - most of Canon's current lineup were designed for the EOS film bodies; if anything, Canon's been making the EF lenses smaller as technology advances in the digital age.

When you talk about weight, bear in mind that with cameras, like with target-shooting rifles, the weight helps you be steadier. If you want a small, inexpensive, MF, MA lens to attach to your EOS, get a Pentax/Praktica 42 mm thread lens and an adapter. Or get an old T-mount lens. There's an EOS T-mount adapter out there; I use it on my Sigma 15 mm fisheye YS mount.


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Wilt
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Oct 29, 2010 17:17 |  #22

hella 325 wrote in post #11189048 (external link)
thanks are they easy to swap back? b/c I tend to use spot metering and central metering a lot. But it would be fun to get some samyang manual primes and a split prism and have a nostalgic walk around the town.



(sorry for the minor hijack)

As easy to remove as it was to install!


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Oct 29, 2010 17:40 |  #23

hella 325 wrote in post #11188990 (external link)
I really miss ... the split prism

Gotta go along with that. If I hafta do MF, I'd sure like that split prism.


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jra
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Oct 29, 2010 19:23 |  #24

Another twist to consider when thinking about the cost....In the digital age, people often replace and upgrade their camera very frequently....a 3 or 4 year old digital camera is already considered old by many. In the film era, there wasn't the need (or desire may be a better word) to buy a new camera body every 2 years. Because of this, digital has less of an advantage on the cost side when you factor in a new body every couple of years. Of course, this depends on the person, some people may upgrade more often some less.




  
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Oct 29, 2010 19:33 |  #25

RTPVid wrote in post #11188695 (external link)
1. Cost.

Compared with film systems, DSLR bodies and lenses are breathtakingly expensive, even accounting for inflation.

Up front cost is high, but film and processing savings offset it for heavy users. For the rare, low volume shooter digital is expensive.

Your comment on the wide availability of cheap, lightweight and fabulous lenses of yesterday also does not pass the smell test. They probably looked great for 8x10 and smaller prints. Most digital employed lenses are being scrutinized to a much higher degree and new lenses are better performers.

3. Death of wide angle.

There are a huge variety of 10-XX zooms for APS-C. Plus, a used 5D is not really all that expensive if you want to use fast primes.

Why are DSLR's so huge? There is no need for a film canister, nor a film take up. What the heck do they need all that space for?

Power supply and processors of course.

Speaking of that, why are there no inexpensive manual focus, manual aperture, non-IS lenses that still couple with the camera's metering system? (i.e. I can set the aperture on the lens, but the camera knows what the aperture is set to for metering purposes so I can focus wide-open?)

Because you and the two other guys that want this do not create a reasonable market demand.

I realize I'm hopelessly nostalgic / living in the past

True as written.


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DStanic
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Oct 29, 2010 20:05 |  #26

Back in the film days prime lenses were all you had. It wasn't until what, the late 1980s that zoom lenses became popular (and of decent quality)? Now zoom lenses are VERY good, as good or better than "hobbyist" prime lenses from the past.


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Oct 29, 2010 21:12 |  #27

DStanic wrote in post #11190529 (external link)
Back in the film days prime lenses were all you had. It wasn't until what, the late 1980s that zoom lenses became popular (and of decent quality)? Now zoom lenses are VERY good, as good or better than "hobbyist" prime lenses from the past.

And there it is. I can carry my heavy 5D with a heavy 24-105 on it, and leave about a dozen rolls of film at home that would equal the flash card, at least 3 or 4 primes to cover the range, and a tripod that has been replaced by the IS (in good light).

Whats the problem with cost and weight when cost is offset by developing being a thing of the past and weight being replaced by having a body /lens/flashcard setup that replaces all that film, all those primes, and most of the time the need for a tripod.

I had to have a bag to go out prepared with a few primes, a body and several rolls of film in the eighties. Now if I carry a bag, I might have two bodies and enough glass to cover 17 to 800mm and batteries and flashcards to shoot for days in it.


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Oct 29, 2010 21:43 as a reply to  @ birdfromboat's post |  #28

OK, hold the phone calls -- I think that I have figured out the best thing about film: getting a faint whiff of the "film aroma" as I opened the container. I know, it's a cheap high. I won't ask for a show of hands from those who have "done film".


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DC ­ Fan
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Oct 30, 2010 06:30 |  #29

From a writer whose first camera was a Kodak Brownie Hawkeye, a few notes. First, an actual comparison.

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On top is a Canon Rebel XS, a 35mm SLR from 1993 that was the smallest and lightest camera of its kind. Underneath is the XS' digital successor from 2006, a Canon Digital Rebel XTi.

Now, there are different ways of interpreting dimensions and appearances, but it's clear from this image that in some ways, the 2006 digital SLR is smaller than the smallest 1993 film SLR, even though both can use the same Canon EF lenses. And, after examining the cameras, it's clear that the smaller dimensions are because the digital SLR does not have "a film canister, nor a film take up."

As for the lack of "...inexpensive manual focus, manual aperture, non-IS lenses that still couple with the camera's metering system," those whose photographic experience dates to the 1970's should recall the reason for that, which can be expressed in one word: Minolta.

The 35mm SLR camera line that changed the industry was the series of Minolta Maxxum cameras (external link) in the mid-1980's. Maxxum autofocus lenses made everything else on the market obsolete, including the Canon FD-mount cameras (external link) of the time, for which nearly all lenses were manual focus. The Maxxum cameras and lenses forced Canon to develop the EF mount and a new series of autofocus lenses.

Combine the rise of autofocus, autoexposure SLR's with the development of digital cameras, and you get the end of an era. You also get three decades of development that have advanced DSLR's from a barely usable, US $15,000-$20,000 monstrosity (external link) into an everyman's camera that can cost as little as US $700, not much more than mid-range film SLR's from the 1990's.

Also, after growing up with fully manual cameras where focus and exposure had to be set in advance and you had to use flashbulbs: the romance of those cameras faded a long, long time ago -- along with the attraction of having to pay for film, processing and printing.

By the way, there is a store with a big collection of FD cameras and lenses (external link) on sale for discount prices, should anyone want to turn nostalgia into reality.



  
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djentley
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Oct 30, 2010 07:53 as a reply to  @ DC Fan's post |  #30

About the cost, with a DSLR you are paying for convenience. If you nail the exposure with a good lens there is no need to go beyond just printing it out from the camera then and there, with film taking the photograph was just the first step. For the amateur you would have to take weeks to get the things developed just to see how many shots were out of focus etc.

I assume to function as a complete “in-camera darkroom” the thing needs to be very large to house all the processors. xxxD series cameras are fairly light also, with a modest lens they look just like any other point and shoot sized camera (but fatter).

As for full frame wide angle, you can get a good 5D classic for under $1000 used if you look hard enough. Still a bulky bastard though.


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