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Thread started 05 Nov 2010 (Friday) 09:08
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Pageant Questions? First Event Like This.

 
DD974
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Nov 05, 2010 09:08 |  #1

I was asked (only 2 days ago) to shoot a pageant tomorrow!!...a 5 hr. event for 5 age groups, infant to 11 yrs. They want me to take candids at the event during talent portion, etc. and formals of the participants as well as probably small groups maybe with their trophies, tiaras, etc. and particularly want someone that will post the images online so the Mommies can buy photos. (which leads to a question..see bottom of this post)

I know a 10' wide background won't be wide enough for even a small group of 5-6 and I don't have a support system to hang the one 20' wide BG I do have. I've used duck tape in the past to hang but don't want to look tacky at this event doing that. I plan on making a site visit today (held at a local Holiday Inn) to see my options in this 70'x30' room.

Given that info....what would anyone else do to solve the backdrop issue? I just don't want to get into alot of post work "adding" background to the edges of the images because it wasn't wide enough.

Also, do I need to have each parent sign a model release or should I just have the pageant director sign a blanket release or....is this necessary at all?


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Tigershark
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Nov 05, 2010 11:05 |  #2

Go to Lowes or Homedepot and buy an extendable Paint Rod for a paint roller, I think they expand to 12 ft some even go to 16 and that should be enough for your 20 ft backdrop, The Rod should have a hole in it that will fit on any stand mounts and the pole just needs to be shoved into the existing mounting rod, hopefully you have a standard 10 ft size, just get a couple feet of it in there and it should hold fine, tape it if you wish. if you have an extra light stand try and use it as a support, a super clamp would work better but I have used this many times and yes it will sag a little in the middle on a 30 ft backdrop you might not have any sag on a 20 ft. I would bring a couple of sand bags for your stands to weight them down but should this work fine for you, avoid the duct tape idea




  
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RDKirk
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Nov 05, 2010 11:20 as a reply to  @ Tigershark's post |  #3

Is this on a stage? Use the stage background curtain as your background.

Also, do I need to have each parent sign a model release or should I just have the pageant director sign a blanket release or....is this necessary at all?

You need the signature of a parent/legal guardian for each child. The pageant director does not have the authority to sign model releases for the children, nor will a "blanket release" work.

It's the user of the images who needs the releases. Unless you want to use the images commercially yourself (such as on your website to gain more photography business), you don't actually need releases--the pageant does. Any release will have to cover their uses for the images. They should already have releases that sufficiently cover them (written by their own lawyers) if they intend to hire someone for photography (but those releases won't cover you). They may even have the release language written into the pageant application forms.


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DD974
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Nov 05, 2010 12:39 |  #4

RDKirk wrote in post #11230281 (external link)
Is this on a stage? Use the stage background curtain as your background.


You need the signature of a parent/legal guardian for each child. The pageant director does not have the authority to sign model releases for the children, nor will a "blanket release" work.

It's the user of the images who needs the releases. Unless you want to use the images commercially yourself (such as on your website to gain more photography business), you don't actually need releases--the pageant does. Any release will have to cover their uses for the images. They should already have releases that sufficiently cover them (written by their own lawyers) if they intend to hire someone for photography (but those releases won't cover you). They may even have the release language written into the pageant application forms.

So, bottom line...if I want to place these on my site either in a password protected gallery for just parents or wide open to the public to buy (which would be considered commercial usage)I do not need to have every guardian/parent sign a release that basically says "yes you have permission to use the image(s) of my child for promotion or sales purposes"...is this correct?


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DD974
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Nov 05, 2010 12:41 |  #5

Tigershark wrote in post #11230169 (external link)
Go to Lowes or Homedepot and buy an extendable Paint Rod for a paint roller, I think they expand to 12 ft some even go to 16 and that should be enough for your 20 ft backdrop, The Rod should have a hole in it that will fit on any stand mounts and the pole just needs to be shoved into the existing mounting rod, hopefully you have a standard 10 ft size, just get a couple feet of it in there and it should hold fine, tape it if you wish. if you have an extra light stand try and use it as a support, a super clamp would work better but I have used this many times and yes it will sag a little in the middle on a 30 ft backdrop you might not have any sag on a 20 ft. I would bring a couple of sand bags for your stands to weight them down but should this work fine for you, avoid the duct tape idea

Thanks for the tip....I just realized I think I have two or three 3' extensions from another stand I bought awhile back too.


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DD974
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Nov 05, 2010 12:43 |  #6

RDKirk wrote in post #11230281 (external link)
Is this on a stage? Use the stage background curtain as your background.

No, it's in a large room and part way through the pageant someone is erecting a small stage, no runway per say. Part of the room will be used for changing as well.


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RDKirk
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Nov 05, 2010 13:34 as a reply to  @ DD974's post |  #7

So, bottom line...if I want to place these on my site either in a password protected gallery for just parents or wide open to the public to buy (which would be considered commercial usage)I do not need to have every guardian/parent sign a release that basically says "yes you have permission to use the image(s) of my child for promotion or sales purposes"...is this correct?

Putting the images in a password-protected gallery and offering them for purchase is not a commercial use. You do not need a release to offer and sell the images themselves.

However, presenting the images to the general public as examples of your photographer skill in order to gain new business is a commercial use, and for that you would need model releases.


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DD974
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Nov 05, 2010 13:41 |  #8

RDKirk wrote in post #11231178 (external link)
Putting the images in a password-protected gallery and offering them for purchase is not a commercial use. You do not need a release to offer and sell the images themselves.

However, presenting the images to the general public as examples of your photographer skill in order to gain new business is a commercial use, and for that you would need model releases.

Got it!...Thanks for your insight, much appreciated.


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DD974
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Nov 09, 2010 07:12 as a reply to  @ DD974's post |  #9

:::UPDATE:::

I shot this event this past Saturday, and posted a little more than 1000 images (candids & formals on a backdrop I had to setup in the lobby of the Holiday Inn) on my site. The event organizer has asked if she could buy an image CD.....keep in mind I didn't charge them to do the event either....being my first "pageant" and this was a fundraiser I thought I'd help them out and I'd get print sales in return.

How much $$ and for how many images?


  1. Should I offer Hi-Rez and Lo-Rez image CDs of their kid
  2. My first thought was every Hi-rez image of their kid for $250
  3. ...or if they didn't want every image, to charge $30 per image.
Seems everyone expects to be able to buy the CD of images instead of ordering from my site. I'd like to control how they are printed instead of this Mom taking the CD to Wally World and getting crappy photos.

Any advice is appreciated.

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RDKirk
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Nov 09, 2010 07:46 |  #10

DD974 wrote in post #11251912 (external link)
:::UPDATE:::

I shot this event this past Saturday, and posted a little more than 1000 images (candids & formals on a backdrop I had to setup in the lobby of the Holiday Inn) on my site. The event organizer has asked if she could buy an image CD.....keep in mind I didn't charge them to do the event either....being my first "pageant" and this was a fundraiser I thought I'd help them out and I'd get print sales in return.


How much $$ and for how many images?

  1. Should I offer Hi-Rez and Lo-Rez image CDs of their kid
  2. My first thought was every Hi-rez image of their kid for $250
  3. ...or if they didn't want every image, to charge $30 per image.
Seems everyone expects to be able to buy the CD of images instead of ordering from my site. I'd like to control how they are printed instead of this Mom taking the CD to Wally World and getting crappy photos.

Any advice is appreciated.

A. Do what you want to do. It's your business enterprise. You're not blooming Burger King. If you only want to offer prints, do so.

B. However, if you do offer digital images, you must realize that you cannot control printing by limiting resolution. That simply does not work--people will enlarge low-resolution images as much as they want and just blame you for the lousy quality.

For the kind of event work you're doing, if you offer digital images, put your watermark or logo tastefully along the bottom or side and sell full-res. But realize that selling the digital image kills future print sales, so price accordingly. $30 is probably about right.

Personally, I would always price and sell by the image, with a bonus for volume purchase--see "C" below

C. You might want to edit a slideshow on CD--to offer as a "relive the experience" keepsake product for the contestants. I'd offer it at a fairly steep price separately or at a lower price with sufficient purchases of individual images.


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DD974
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Nov 09, 2010 08:43 as a reply to  @ RDKirk's post |  #11

Thanks for the advice...just never fancied my business to a fast-food chain...hmmm :D


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amfoto1
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Nov 09, 2010 12:25 |  #12

RDKirk wrote in post #11231178 (external link)
Putting the images in a password-protected gallery and offering them for purchase is not a commercial use. You do not need a release to offer and sell the images themselves.

However, presenting the images to the general public as examples of your photographer skill in order to gain new business is a commercial use, and for that you would need model releases.

There is so much mis-information about model releases here on POTN!

Putting images in an online gallery (password or not) and offering them for sale to the participants most certainly is commercial in nature. You need permission from the pageant organizer to shoot. The participants' parents and guardians will sign a waiver or release with the organizer, which nearly always includes authorizing photography be done and images posted online afterward as a condition of their participation, so don't necessarily need to sign anything with the photographer.

However, I agree that you do not need to sign a model release for this purpose... when offering prints and/or files of the images to the participants and their families, even though it is commercial in nature... It's an exception. You would need one if the images were to be licensed and sold for other commercial usage by parties other than the participants and their families, such as advertising. For example, if the pageant organizer wanted to use one of your images in a marketing piece or on their promotional website, Then it should be properly model released.

You do not need a signed model release for your personal portfolio display either, whether it's online or prinited. Worst that can happen, someone asks you to not show their kid's picture, you take it down, and that's the end of story. No harm, no law suit, no cost. Actually it's more of a courtesy than anything, though, since as it stands now portfolio examples of your work are specifically excluded from needing a signed model release. Portfolio examples are considered "editorial" in nature by the courts, for purposes of model releases. If asked to remove an image you could probably fight the issue and win, but it's likely not worth it. From a customer relations and practical standpoint, just remove the image if asked to do so.

Now, if you were making up a marketing piece for yourself, such as a printed brochure or a self-promotion website (aside from the "portfolio" or "gallery" areas of such a website), even using the image on your business cards or to make greeting cards for sale to the general public, you should have a signed model release on file.

All that said, it's always good to get a signed release whenever you can, especially with kids. The images you make will have more possible uses in the future, much higher potential value, and you will be in a better position to avoid silly legal action that can be costly to you even if you ultimately win in the end.

A model release is just a "risk reducer" in any event. If you never got one, you actually might never need one no matter how you use the images. It just makes it less likely that you'll get sued, or that someone you license the image to will get sued, if you get one signed but doesn't completely eliminate the possibility. Most companies licensing images from you will want and expect that you'll have a signed release on file, to reduce their risk.

Fine art and general editorial (news) usage does not require a release, although more and more editorial users are asking for them too. And there are certain types of photography that have higher risk than others...

For example, I'd always insist on a signed model release with any nude or suggestive "boudour" photography. You should also get solid proof of age, too, to go along with it. Of course this is not even a consideration with younger kids such as we're talking about here.

Offer prints, but be prepared to provide digital images. I sell an 8x10 for $20 and a digital file download large enough to make a good 8x10 for $18 each. I'll discount either if customer is buying a large number of images. I won't offer a "lazy photographer CD" where I just give them a whole bunch of high rez files and tell them to print them themselves. I will provide a CD, though, if they wish.

I wouldn't provide a complete CD to the organizer, unless it were only watermarked thumbnails or proofs. Then they would need to request specific images and you could continue to monitor and control usage, avoid possible misuses where a release might be important, for example. I do help out organizers with images for their websites and marketing materials, gratis, because after all they give me free promotion, links, exceptional access to their events and occasionally even a free meal! Since I work with the same organizers year after year, what's good for them is good for me. And, besides, whenever they use my images (with a credit or a link) I often see a fresh uptick in sales.


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RDKirk
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Nov 09, 2010 13:17 as a reply to  @ amfoto1's post |  #13

Putting images in an online gallery (password or not) and offering them for sale to the participants most certainly is commercial in nature.

No, it's not. In fact, Florida and Nebraska (at least) have specifically legislated that selling the image itself is not a "commercial use." The New York Supreme Court system has ruled that it's not (Nussenzweig v. diCorcia )

There are no "exceptions" to this disctinction. Selling the image itself specifically is not a "commercial use."

In a decision dated February 8, 2006, the trial court ruled in favor of diCorcia and Pace/MacGill on both grounds, and dismissed Nussenzweig's lawsuit. It ruled that the defendants' uses of Nussenzweig's likeness were not "commercial," but rather were forms of artistic expression protected by the First Amendment. Accordingly, the court held that Nussenzweig could not block the publication, display or sale of the photograph containing his likeness, and that he was entitled to no money from the photographer, the gallery or the book publisher.

http://en.wikipedia.or​g/wiki/Nussenzweig_v._​DiCorcia (external link)


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