Breaking into Senior Portaits, Familes [Long Post Warning]

Part 1) Six years ago I was swept up from amateur to part time professional by a friend ... there is a link to that story in a POTN thread in my .sig ... and have had moderate success as the House Photographer for the Entertainment Department at the Chumash Casino Resort. I have reinvested all photography income into equipment and education (and am currently being audited by the IRS because I didn't borrow myself into huge debt and then try to dig out) and am now well educated and well equipped. I have a dedicated home studio and office. There is a fairly itemized accounting in my Gear List link in my .sig.

Part 2) I have worked in IT at the University of California for about 35 years and now plan to retire in something under 18 months. While I can likely live on my pension because I have a much younger wife who is smarter and makes more money than I do I really enjoy photography. I had been toying with the idea of trying to expand from concerts and a bit of glamor photography. And working will allow me to do things I otherwise would be unable to such as visit Jason Cole in Australia next year ... currently in the budget.

Part 3) About four months ago while photographing a poker tournament at the casino I was approached by a small Asian guy (this profiling will make sense later) and asked if I did Senior Portraits. I told him I hadn't yet but planned to ... and would he want to swap his kid's time for images with the understanding that I was experimental and we would need several shoots and I would want to use the images as blatant advertising material. He was good with that so we teamed up and have done two shoots and have more planned. The current results are at http://dwightmccann.co​m …omanySeniorPort​raits.html for your review. To bring this to a conclusion, it turns out that Dio (the Dad) is Laotian (naturalized) and is the president of the local Laotian Society and offered to "sell me" to his community when I'm ready. And, his wife owns a beauty salon and will "sell me" from it including putting up big posters (which will feature their daughter!) He has also connected me up with a second Laotian girl who I have shot once and am hoping for more and has a third one lined up to help with my portfolio. Dio and Siri (wife) and Nicole are amazing to work with and I'm lovin' it.

Part 4) My first amateur glamor model from a couple of years ago and her boy friend are very pregnant. She really wanted me to do a maternity shoot. I thought it would be very airy-fairy girlie and was reticent but she pressed so I relented. They showed up and everything took on a life of its own and it was wonderful. I asked them back for two days later. I am overjoyed with the pictures, some of which can be seen at http://dwightmccann.co​m …r/JanieEricMate​rnity.html if you're interested. I made them a 20 page Blurb book and everyone who has seen it has been awed. I have had a couple of people ask about maternity shoots already. We are also planning on doing quarterly baby shoots with Lily (the unborn daughter) for the first year as part of the deal. I think it will be a real asset to the portfolio.

Part 5 [and almost the end]) One of my acquaintances from the casino asked if I did family portraits. His wife was not happy with the work she had seen of other photographers in the valley and asked him to ask me. While they insisted on paying me more than a token fee it is a flat fee for which I plan to do any and everything from prints and coffee cups to a gallery wrap. That shoot is in progress but I expect they will be happy. They have offered to do PR for me at the casino and in the valley.

As with the casino gig that arrived unsolicited by me, I am a bit overwhelmed ... mostly from a marketing/packaging perspective. I have a ton of questions and don't know where to turn other than here. So I'll lay out some of them ... you may laugh as needed as I know some are a bit off the wall ... just don't be vicious.

1: For seniors, should I buy some PS templates? Do seniors want that two or three images on fancy background? Or should I just hand do textures/frames? I'm not sure whether either is useful. I expect to hear that I need to find out from the clients.

2. For seniors, what sorts of products do you offer? What sorts of sitting options do you offer? I have both a studio, although very small, and am 20 minutes from the Pacific Ocean.

3. Do you have/use an iPad for your photography? I just read a great article in Professional Photographer about how to make use of them as well as having chatted with Al Powers (Turbo on POTN) about his use. Might I be better off with another brand? Might I be better off waiting? Is it a total waste of time? I've never had an iGadget of any flavor and am not impressed by slickness for myself but am always happy to impress the client.

4. Seniors, again: What are Rep Cards? They appear to be little cards with a picture of the senior on a background, school name and graduating year. Sometimes they come in "tins". But I don't know of anyone who uses them. If it's not obvious, the whole "products" thing has me a bit confused.

5. Do you get contracts for every kind of shoot? I'm thinking they are a good idea and would itemize the product to be provided, price and other options and disclaimers.

I'm going to stop here. If there are responses I can pursue more issues but I have already far exceeded the 'maximum anyone will ever read' length. I am also quite open to having others 'tailgate' their questions or otherwise highjack the thread.

Well, I was pursuing some other threads and feel that I need to be clear that I am not asking IF I should expand into this arena. I already gross about $40K doing my part time thing, have a pretty good reputation in the valley just from the casino exposure. I have liability, indemnity and equipment insurance. I am registered with the BOE (California's Sales Tax entity), and all that business stuff. And I can't fail because if I don't get any work it won't be worse than what I have.

Ok I'll help...if I can.

1. Templates: meh, I don't sell a lot of templated stuff and when I do I usually show clients what I have or what I can get and go from there. If they pick something I don't have, I buy it. I've currently only sold 2 albums but use mini accordion books like crazy.

2. My products are listed on my website: http::/rfpstudio.com/s​enior-investment.pdf

I also occasionally offer metal prints but I've not had many takers on that kind of stuff.

Sessions: most of my seniors want studio AND outdoor. The fun backgrounds are a must for them. I love denny manufacturing for my backdrops but even simple paper can work wonders. You are one lucky dude being so close to the ocean....they would eat up sunset/OCF work.

3. I have the iWants for an iPad. But, I've lived without it.

4. Rep cards are great little things for your senior rep program. My info on all of that is again on my site: http://rfpstudio.com under the senior models menu. The cards are basically something for your rep to give to their friends to coerce them to come to you. Most people include a discount or freebie of some sort. I give out $50 gift cards for the moment.

5. Yes, you should do that. Do I, no because I'm a slacker and really need to make that a priority for this year. My biz just kind of boomed on be before I was ready this year.

Hey Dwight, Here are two suggestions for ya: www.syncseniors.com Their convention is coming up at the end of Jan in St Pete, Florida. This would give you a shot in the arm and a jump start as to the business of Senior Photography. The other suggestion is pro4um.com It's a paid forum, by far the best on the net when it comes to professional photographers and the senior market. Kirk Voclain (owner) does have a 3 day trial you can use for only $25. I pay for my membership over and over again and it's the best money I spend on my business. Here's Kirk's personal website: kvphoto.com

Best to ya, Ernst

Tiffany, thanks, I'll be checking out your stuff. I also see that Photovision will be doing a big segment on seniors that should be very helpful.

Emst, I still have my day job so I don't think I'll be going to Florida in January. The Pro4um.com sounds excellent ... I'll check into it. Thanks.

4: Dwight, I know you have a printer but, take a look at WHCC- just to see what they offer in the senior line.
Here's there link for rep cards to give you an idea. Kinda of like a players card, single side or both sides.
http://www.whcc.com …cards-products/rep-cards/

3: I use both, iPad and iPod Touch.
90% of my portfolio is on it ( I still carry a few prints, so the can see the minor differences from electronic to actual Print )
-I also use it to capture, ie- onone's dslr remote pro.
I allow clients to pick a few from the session and use the card adapter to upload into the iPad. I can make minor adjustments in the ipad and set output for tweet and FB size files. The can log on with my iPad straight to there account and upload the chosen photographs right then and there.
-They can't wait for the session to be over and do that. Even some adults get giddy at the idea.

5: Yes. Very. PDF and email make that easy.
I even have an app on my iPad for that also
Along with a general style model release in PDF format. I can ad the chosen prints to the release form, have everybody needed, sign it and email it from there to myself an all other parties concerned.

Templets I sometimes use, but mostly when I want something in that line, I make it with layers and brushes ......

As for marketing and advertisement, You have that already in play big time.
Your about to get very, very Busy!
I know your busy now, won't be long you will need to of you.

TopHatMoments wrote in post #11339387
4: Dwight, I know you have a printer but, take a look at WHCC- just to see what they offer in the senior line.
Here's there link for rep cards to give you an idea. Kinda of like a players card, single side or both sides.
http://www.whcc.com …cards-products/rep-cards/

3: I use both, iPad and iPod Touch.
90% of my portfolio is on it ( I still carry a few prints, so the can see the minor differences from electronic to actual Print )
-I also use it to capture, ie- onone's dslr remote pro.
I allow clients to pick a few from the session and use the card adapter to upload into the iPad. I can make minor adjustments in the ipad and set output for tweet and FB size files. The can log on with my iPad straight to there account and upload the chosen photographs right then and there.
-They can't wait for the session to be over and do that. Even some adults get giddy at the idea.

5: Yes. Very. PDF and email make that easy.
I even have an app on my iPad for that also
Along with a general style model release in PDF format. I can ad the chosen prints to the release form, have everybody needed, sign it and email it from there to myself an all other parties concerned.

Templets I sometimes use, but mostly when I want something in that line, I make it with layers and brushes ......

As for marketing and advertisement, You have that already in play big time.
Your about to get very, very Busy!
I know your busy now, won't be long you will need to of you.

Yes, I certainly do have printers and I certainly have no problem sending to labs. I am aware of WHCC and several others. I will, however, peruse the link since this is an area I am not clear about.

About the iPad ... I'm sold on the idea but with so many new competitors coming out and my aversion to iGadgets I feel a strong urge to wait ... maybe that's not a good idea and I should go with the crowd on this first one and then see what develops.

I will go to the PPA website and check for contracts. I know they have releases, but those are a bit different. Any clues where there might be some elsewhere for Seniors, Maternity, Babies, Children or Families?

I guess I'll wait on templates until someone asks.

I also need to work up prices/packages, sigh.

Thanks for your help.

Just read a bit on your blog, ( nicely done )..
Your going to love that Singh-Ray Vari-ND Duo, if you don't already. When mine arrived I pulled it from it's case pointed it to the sky and proceeded to turn off all the light.

--
The few electronic release's I have, you have the resource above with PPA.
I luckily have a lawyer friend known from high school. He created and keeps them up to date, my contracts and releases, also he looks over my electronic setup to make sure I'm not hanging my self.
-in return he and his family always have current portraits, seniors shoots, heck from his marriage and up, some 30 plus years. We both struggled at the start.
- we drummed up business for each other for years.
Good thing he does my work on the barter system, as over the years my fee's have just slightly risen, his on the other hand $$$$

Some think I'm a bit off in the way that I price.
I bill my time at so much an hour, my setup time, session time, retouch time .... All the same base hourly rate.
Plus Prints. I figure each hour yields about 24 usable shots, by the time they change and we rearrange.
Depending on how much shooting time we agree on ( after the first hour, I'll bill by the half hour ) until we acquire the agreed chosen time.
- with that in mind I know abbot how much PP time will be involved. I add that to the rest and I quote from there. - They always feel like they are getting a custom package, there's no hidden fees and a known amount of prints at an agreed price are included. I give a jpeg file matching each chosen Print (there negative) and I always add a few more, all with retouching. Again makes them feel special to receive a few more than bargained for..
Yada yada ... I charge the same for any shoot I do. Why should I charge differently for one type of shoot than any other. It's always me behind the camera and always my cameras. My rate is far mor than enough to cover for all the expenses involved. If I travel out of my happy circle I add a small fee to cover the extended distance. The extra fee is distance dependent.

Ok yeah I'm long winded. Let's pick an easy #er to work with 100 per hour. An hours shoot always has at least a half hour PP. I don't struggle with LR or PS so that helps as I can get in get done. Some times takes longer to import with background basic PP as the come in than anything else.

Senior shoot there's an hour to start depending if we travel from here to yonder. I don't hurry or push but I do help them along, on there behalf. I find it helps everyone to stay focused, not really worrying about time but, knowing time and money is in the outer thoughts.
It's never about volume, it's about quality. ( still I do have a minimum I need to have ) to match time involved.

Weddings same way, ah you can't make money like that. Humm if you don't do the engagement session or the rehearsal dinner, or the session for the invitations, all you do is the day of the wedding, that an average of 8 hours.. From the time she is almost Gowned to the location and the reception.
- 8 hours shooting 4-5 hours PP sometimes a bit longer PP time. There's 12-1,300 plus prints. There's 200 to 240 of " keepers " for them to chose from. If the only purchase half ( if you make them look really good ) on average they buy more. For the ease of thought 12-1,300 for time involved plus your print markup
! Now it starts to add up. Average wedding with the engagement, rehearsal diner... 20-30 hours
8hrs wedding day, 2ish hrs rehearsal dinner, 1-2hr engagement, brides maids final fitting day, brides final fit and her gown session. It all adds up all plus prints (at my markup).. Don't forget coffee table books, a nice weeding album $$$ the invitations are on the bill at the start but I cross out the fee as a wedding gift.
It's all about making the client feel special.

That why my rate is the same for any type of shoot I do. Family, children, maternity, senior, event, pet,wedding...
The above rate was years past, I'm not a great deal higher but it is a bit more.

Didn't mean to ramble, I just find it easier to explain why I charge like I do rather than just blurt out I charge Xamount rate for everything
When I do that they always ask.
(commercial pricing is a whole other ball game)

I still think your about to fall into a rose garden,
Full Tilt, Boogie Woggie, All hands on Deck!

TopHatMoments wrote in post #11339451
Just read a bit on your blog, ( nicely done )..
Your going to love that Singh-Ray Vari-ND Duo, if you don't already. When mine arrived I pulled it from it's case pointed it to the sky and proceeded to turn off all the light.

Oh, I have been so bad with my blog, sigh, with such good intentions. I know I have more equipment than many big studios and should be doing reviews. I bought that vari ND mainly for studio use so I could open up the 1.2 really wide but I haven't used it yet ... I always have so many things going on ... you don't want to know.

Dwight, You might also want to check out Fuzzy Duenkel www.duenkel.com I think he has a book out called Fuzzy Logic ( maybe in it's 4th or 5th edition ) , it helped me greatly when I lst opened up my studio and I still adhere to his pricing methods.

Oh, it's in it's 9th edition.

WOW!! I cant believe how many questions this thread just answered for me.

Thanks Dwight and thanks to everyone else who has provided tips. St. Pete is only a few hours drive from my current location so I'm looking into that.

I've been going through the same things as Dwight has been lately and have been sruggling with many of these same questions and situations

Again, thanks for asking everything that's on my mind

So, Pat, why didn't you write what I just wrote and save me the time? LOL. I've been too busy to do anything yet ... just finishing up a 340 page Blurb book of concert images which has taken forever plus family shoot, senior shoot (of a sophomore), maternity shoot and normal casino work plus full time job. Wish I could retire now so I could work more!

HAHA!! Since we've stopped traveling, I've been doing quite a few portrait secessions, a few weddings and have been asked about next years Senior Portraits which is why your questions were so timely

It looks like you're doing great Dwight and I'm looking forward to learn from you

Hey Pat, Let me know if you decide to attend SYNC. I'd be more than happy to meet ya and have a beer or two.

Dwight, it's a Sat thru Mon convention, how hard would it be to get some time off for your day job?

If I head down Ernst, I'll give ya a shout. I'm always game to share a few beers with fellow Photographers and POTN members