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Thread started 09 Dec 2010 (Thursday) 20:05
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What Kind Of Permission Do I Have To Get To Sell Images Of President Barack Obama?

 
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danpass
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Dec 10, 2010 14:10 |  #31

MJPhotos24 wrote in post #11429478 (external link)
What are you talking about? You can take images of ANYONE in public, as long as you are not breaking the law to obtain them and remain on public property. Once you take the photo only a judge can rule for you to not sell, distribute and can even make you destroy all copies if found to obtained it illegally or there was an expectation of privacy.

Only thing that can think of you might be talking about is that, the expectation of privacy. Brad Pitt they (pappo) get in a helicopter and take images of from above they may say he's a public figure so allow it, but if you did it to Joe Schmoe they may say not and not allow the release of the images. But on say a public street, anywhere in public, you can take images of anyone you want as long as there is no expectation of privacy.

this wasn't what I'd read but the closest thing I can find so far. It would have been nice if the 'public figure' part had been addressed in the way we're talking about here (politicians, etc):

http://www.wipo.int …uments/ip_photo​graphy.htm (external link)
• Using someone’s image for commercial benefit

Many countries recognize that individuals have a right of publicity. The right of publicity is the direct opposite of the right of privacy. It recognizes that a person’s image has economic value that is presumed to be the result of the person’s own effort and it gives to each person the right to exploit their own image.
Under this right, you could be liable if you use a photograph of someone without their consent to gain some commercial benefit.
Although the right of publicity is frequently associated with celebrities, every person, regardless of how famous, has a right to prevent unauthorized use of their name or image for commercial purposes. However, as a matter of practice, right of publicity suits are typically brought by celebrities, who are in a better position than ordinary individuals to demonstrate that their identity has commercial value. You should, therefore, act with special caution before using a photograph of a celebrity for your own commercial gain. If you consider selling photos of celebrities or using them in advertisements or on your website, then you should certainly obtain photographic releases (that is, permission to do so) from the people portrayed in your shots.
Example: Putting an unauthorized photograph of the tennis star Kim Clijsters on the cover of a sports magazine after she wins a grand slam final, would probably not be considered an infringement of Kim’s right of publicity, since the use is mainly informative. Conversely, if you print that same picture on posters and market them, you are simply trying to make money by exploiting her image. Kim Clijsters would have grounds to file a lawsuit for infringement of her right of publicity. This can result in monetary damages against you, and/or forced removal of the posters.
Example: A photographer who displays someone’s portrait, without having first obtained the permission, in his shop window or on his website to advertise portrait services, may in some countries be liable for violating the privacy rights of the portrayed person.xiii
While an individual’s right to privacy generally ends when the individual dies, in many countries, the publicity rights continue many years after death.xiv This means, for example, that it is illegal in some countries to use a photo of Marilyn Monroe or Elvis Presley for commercial purposes without the consent of their estates. As a matter of fact, many representatives of well-known authors, musicians, actors, photographers, politicians, sports figures, celebrities, and other public figures continue to control and license the uses of those persons’ names, likenesses, etc.


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Dec 10, 2010 14:26 |  #32

MJPhotos24 wrote in post #11429446 (external link)
You should note that this was changed and flickr added a new category just to the WH photos that now state no copyright attached. Pete originally had his copyright in his photos posted there, they are not there anymore...and he's the one taking those meet and greet shots, not some other civil servant. Watch the Presidents Photographer.

He still notes the copyright on his own website. The fact that he permits a broad public use license does not abrogate his copyright.


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MJPhotos24
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Dec 10, 2010 14:29 |  #33

danpass wrote in post #11429495 (external link)
this wasn't what I'd read but the closest thing I can find so far. It would have been nice if the 'public figure' part had been addressed in the way we're talking about here (politicians, etc):

http://www.wipo.int …uments/ip_photo​graphy.htm (external link)
• Using someone’s image for commercial benefit

Many countries recognize that individuals have a right of publicity. The right of publicity is the direct opposite of the right of privacy. It recognizes that a person’s image has economic value that is presumed to be the result of the person’s own effort and it gives to each person the right to exploit their own image.
Under this right, you could be liable if you use a photograph of someone without their consent to gain some commercial benefit.
Although the right of publicity is frequently associated with celebrities, every person, regardless of how famous, has a right to prevent unauthorized use of their name or image for commercial purposes. However, as a matter of practice, right of publicity suits are typically brought by celebrities, who are in a better position than ordinary individuals to demonstrate that their identity has commercial value. You should, therefore, act with special caution before using a photograph of a celebrity for your own commercial gain. If you consider selling photos of celebrities or using them in advertisements or on your website, then you should certainly obtain photographic releases (that is, permission to do so) from the people portrayed in your shots.
Example: Putting an unauthorized photograph of the tennis star Kim Clijsters on the cover of a sports magazine after she wins a grand slam final, would probably not be considered an infringement of Kim’s right of publicity, since the use is mainly informative. Conversely, if you print that same picture on posters and market them, you are simply trying to make money by exploiting her image. Kim Clijsters would have grounds to file a lawsuit for infringement of her right of publicity. This can result in monetary damages against you, and/or forced removal of the posters.
Example: A photographer who displays someone’s portrait, without having first obtained the permission, in his shop window or on his website to advertise portrait services, may in some countries be liable for violating the privacy rights of the portrayed person.xiii
While an individual’s right to privacy generally ends when the individual dies, in many countries, the publicity rights continue many years after death.xiv This means, for example, that it is illegal in some countries to use a photo of Marilyn Monroe or Elvis Presley for commercial purposes without the consent of their estates. As a matter of fact, many representatives of well-known authors, musicians, actors, photographers, politicians, sports figures, celebrities, and other public figures continue to control and license the uses of those persons’ names, likenesses, etc.

I don't see how this relates to the Brad Pitt analogy?

Editorial vs. commercial maybe what you mean? A magazine is editorial here in the US so you can publish a persons image in it without permission any time you want. They can of course sue if they don't like it, but if it was obtained legally then tough luck - it's why tabloids are around today, celebrities used to hate them but not use them just as much as the tabloids use the celebrities. Prints are actually editorial and you can sell them in this country, of course it comes with consequences in they can ban you from future events if you got the images through a media pass, but if you blow it up to posters and try to sell those it's illegal commercial usage. No matter who is in the image.


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RDKirk
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Dec 10, 2010 14:31 as a reply to  @ RDKirk's post |  #34

A photographer who displays someone’s portrait, without having first obtained the permission, in his shop window or on his website to advertise portrait services, may in some countries be liable for violating the privacy rights of the portrayed person.xiii
While an individual’s right to privacy generally ends when the individual dies, in many countries, the publicity rights continue many years after death.xiv This means, for example, that it is illegal in some countries to use a photo of Marilyn Monroe or Elvis Presley for commercial purposes without the consent of their estates. As a matter of fact, many representatives of well-known authors, musicians, actors, photographers, politicians, sports figures, celebrities, and other public figures continue to control and license the uses of those persons’ names, likenesses, etc.

In the US, this is controlled by state law, and interestingly, even possessing a signed full release from the model does not necessarily give the photographer the right to use the photographs for commercial purposes after the model is dead.

California a few years passed a law that makes a person's image the "property" of the estate after death and basically nullifies any model releases the person may have given while alive. This law was pushed by the estate of Marilyn Monroe, and there are photographers with images of Marilyn Monroe that are still fighting this.


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Dec 10, 2010 15:37 |  #35

RDKirk wrote in post #11429572 (external link)
He still notes the copyright on his own website. The fact that he permits a broad public use license does not abrogate his copyright.

He has a copyright notice in the bottom left of his site and another one that you get when you right click. Not exactly "hard evidence". Every shot he - and all staffers - takes becomes property of the national archives. None are ever deleted, the WH decides which ones are released to the public, not Pete himself (though he leads that team as director).

The argument is not the images itself, it's the use of someones likeness when it comes to commercial use. Pete can't sue over the use in a photo he does not like, illegal commercial usage, but the President can because they're using his "likeness".


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Dec 10, 2010 16:12 |  #36

RDKirk wrote in post #11429603 (external link)
In the US, this is controlled by state law, and interestingly, even possessing a signed full release from the model does not necessarily give the photographer the right to use the photographs for commercial purposes after the model is dead.

California a few years passed a law that makes a person's image the "property" of the estate after death and basically nullifies any model releases the person may have given while alive. This law was pushed by the estate of Marilyn Monroe, and there are photographers with images of Marilyn Monroe that are still fighting this.

Another thing going to heavily question, the law itself says nothing about model releases and just says you're liable if you did not gain permission from the heirs of the estate. If they had a model release that said good for any usage for 100 years after death signed by Marilyn then it'd be legal for them to do what they want commercially as long as the model release said so. If it said "life" that would be soon as they died, so does the release. The images are still owned by the heirs of the photographers, considering they're dead, and can be used editorially all they want, just not commercially. Some states differ (look at Elvis) on time limit of when one's heirs can collect on licensing, but can't find a thing that relates directly to model releases. If exists please post it, that'd be interesting to read.


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RDKirk
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Dec 10, 2010 16:41 |  #37

MJPhotos24 wrote in post #11430129 (external link)
Another thing going to heavily question, the law itself says nothing about model releases and just says you're liable if you did not gain permission from the heirs of the estate. If they had a model release that said good for any usage for 100 years after death signed by Marilyn then it'd be legal for them to do what they want commercially as long as the model release said so. If it said "life" that would be soon as they died, so does the release. The images are still owned by the heirs of the photographers, considering they're dead, and can be used editorially all they want, just not commercially. Some states differ (look at Elvis) on time limit of when one's heirs can collect on licensing, but can't find a thing that relates directly to model releases. If exists please post it, that'd be interesting to read.

At this point, the photographers have the Monroe estate in court. There is googlable documentation on it.

The issue, as I understand it, is that model releases have always been considered by the courts to be a privacy issue and courts have always considered privacy to end at a person's death--which means, the Monroe estate argues--that whatever privacy permissions that had been granted also end at death.

Now that the estate has gotten legislation to make the image property, they believe their property rights take precedence over what is now an invalid privacy permission.


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Dec 10, 2010 16:43 |  #38

MJPhotos24 wrote in post #11429969 (external link)
Every shot he - and all staffers - takes becomes property of the national archives.

That does not disable or transfer the author's copyright, btw, unless as usual the contract explicitly does so. It actually obligates the federal government itself to protect the author's copyright.


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Dec 10, 2010 17:08 |  #39

RDKirk wrote in post #11430280 (external link)
At this point, the photographers have the Monroe estate in court. There is googlable documentation on it.

The issue, as I understand it, is that model releases have always been considered by the courts to be a privacy issue and courts have always considered privacy to end at a person's death--which means, the Monroe estate argues--that whatever privacy permissions that had been granted also end at death.

Now that the estate has gotten legislation to make the image property, they believe their property rights take precedence over what is now an invalid privacy permission.

Not arguing that, but haven't been able to find anything on google. So if there's a link POST IT so it can be READ by others as it DOES relate to business practices. I can't find it and tried at least 20 different search terms, all I found is what I stated that said nothing about this at all. Wouldn't doubt it, everyone is going after the big buck and she still brings them.


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Dec 10, 2010 18:43 |  #40
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I don't think anyone would buy anything with that ****ty low res crap anyway...don't drink and post!

BTW I can see the reflection off the tv screen..


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Dec 10, 2010 19:00 |  #41

RDKirk wrote in post #11430289 (external link)
That does not disable or transfer the author's copyright, btw, unless as usual the contract explicitly does so. It actually obligates the federal government itself to protect the author's copyright.

Let's break this down...

If he's a government employee the work is property the government and no copyright within the US, but can be held outside the US because different countries laws. However, it's held by the US and not the person that shot it. Again...http://www.usa.gov/cop​yright.shtml (external link)

If he's a government contractor it depends on what the contract says. I'm pretty positive neither of us were at the signing of that contract and have yet to see Pete discuss it. The only comment I've seen is the copyright info is embedded in the photos posted on flickr that he made over at sports shooter almost two years ago now.

Either way - his images BELONG to the national archive. Staff he owns it just as much as everyone else does; contractor it's his copyright and every citizen has the right to it if it's released. However, either way again it can be made to be released even if the WH does not initially (Bill Clinton/Monica Lewinsky) is an example of that.

If you do some googling you'll find a bunch of articles that talk about how he does not own any copyrights. Dozens of sites say it, especially about the flickr change. They all consider it government works, the flickr stream says it's government works and that's the official photo stream, the white house site says it's government works as well, so to error on the side of caution I'd say you follow that until Pete comes out and says "this is what the contract says". Not to mention of course the infamous subpoena by Kenn Starr of government works by the WH photographer in the Clinton for Monica, which the judge agreed.


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Dec 10, 2010 19:01 |  #42

SnapShot Photos wrote in post #11430806 (external link)
I don't think anyone would buy anything with that ****ty low res crap anyway...don't drink and post!

BTW I can see the reflection off the tv screen..

There goes my plans for 2am, party pooper...and I had been photographing Barney Frank all day on TV, even got a great image of Obama and Clinton together. What a shame...


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Dec 11, 2010 03:03 |  #43

Hi Folks,

I did some intense reading on this subject, but was unable to locate <case> law to support either side.
It seems that if you are the President, your likeness will get used any old way folks want to without much impunity. He is so popular that it would be nearly impossible to track down and sue or even threaten the tons of cases that may or may not meet current law.

I still think that if the OP were to market that image (even as it is) there would be little in the way of actual risk legally. Sure, that's easy for me to say, my bacon is not on the fire. BUT when you consider ALL of the past President's we have had, all of them suffered the same issue. It comes with the territory. I really can't see the big bad law dogs from DC hunting down some schmuck that made a few hundred coffee mugs with Obama on it. Go look at cafepress.com there are craploads of stuff on that site alone, and I would make a safe bet against anyone of you that President Obama, Clinton, Bush, Bush, Reagan etc never ever signed a release form. You'd be better off trying to give the president's motocade a speeding ticket

The POTUS's team has tried to restrict some of it though http://www.bloomberg.c​om …sarchive&sid=aY​4JojiQVy4c (external link)

But there is no actual word on how that is going. I cannot find case law anywhere, where a current or fomer President has sued someone over commercial useage of his likeness. If you find ONE let me know because I really am interested.

POTUS is a "public person" and unless you can show libel or slander, usage of an image just for commercial gain is going to happen.

Now, to the use of military personnel in advertising. I must disagree with RDKIrK, when you are in the Military, you follow orders. If your OIC says to go and stand by that plane and get your picture taken, you are going to have to follow orders, and you aren't going to get any extra pay for it. In order for a models release to take hold and be valid, both parties must gain something from the transaction.

I great example of that would be the US NAVY Blue Angels. Millions of images of them are shot each year, both of the pilots and the A/C. The photographers may use those images with impunity, to make calanders, coffe mugs, jackets etc. No release is required. They were going to try and copyright their logos but the congress, and the Courts all said that it would not be legal unless major changes were to be made within US Law. Many of us A/C shooters were scared because it would mean that thousands of images of stock would be rendered useless with out proper releaes and clearances.

Also companies like the military channel would be unable to use military / civilian contracted images of troops without getting releases from eveyone in the group shot. We cannot go back in time and get releases of a SEAL team photo...


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Dec 11, 2010 05:15 |  #44

However, aircraft manufacturers can (and have) put the kibosh on commercial use of likenesses and images of their products.

There was a gathering a couple years ago where photographers were allowed to shoot a P-38 Lighting next to an F-35 Lighting II but were told they couldn't sell the images (and I'm not even sure they were ok with Editorial use either...)

Additionally, there have been instances of lawsuits being filed against companies like Tamiya and MRC for patent infringements over plastic model kits being produced with no royalties having been paid. IIRC, for a time, Sikorsky Helicopter was very militant and very aggressive about this. I think "Lock-Mart" also sent some C&D letters as well.


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Dec 11, 2010 06:59 |  #45

FlyingPhotog wrote in post #11432609 (external link)
However, aircraft manufacturers can (and have) put the kibosh on commercial use of likenesses and images of their products.

There was a gathering a couple years ago where photographers were allowed to shoot a P-38 Lighting next to an F-35 Lighting II but were told they couldn't sell the images (and I'm not even sure they were ok with Editorial use either...)

Additionally, there have been instances of lawsuits being filed against companies like Tamiya and MRC for patent infringements over plastic model kits being produced with no royalties having been paid. IIRC, for a time, Sikorsky Helicopter was very militant and very aggressive about this. I think "Lock-Mart" also sent some C&D letters as well.

And the perfect 3 point landing goes to Jay. Yes LM did do that with the F-22
(talk to Tyson but turn the phone volume first lol, actually don't you will open old wounds). That was as you stated due to the fact that model and flying model companies were making dupes fo sale without permission. I actually wrote the lawyers involved with the patent/copyright/trade​mark trifecta for LM. They at first were going to go after ANY photographer that made images of those A/C and sold them for commercial work. TR hit the roof.

As far as the Prez in concerned, I don't think the image we saw here is worth much anyway so this entire thread is qtqrtjqergu on yr shoe. LOL

If the issue is really that hot for the OP have him contact an IP attorney and stop taking legal advice from guys like me... I tend to run when I see papers with blue backs!!


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What Kind Of Permission Do I Have To Get To Sell Images Of President Barack Obama?
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