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FORUMS Canon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Canon EF and EF-S Lenses 
Thread started 16 Dec 2010 (Thursday) 15:21
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24-70 or 24-105 for indoor flash

 
xarqi
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Dec 16, 2010 18:36 |  #16

Frugal wrote in post #11464747 (external link)
Yes but for a given shutter speed you can shoot in a 1 stop darker ambient with f/2.8 vs f/4. - provided the DOF works for you

And what does that have to do with flash?




  
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TooManyShots
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Dec 16, 2010 18:41 |  #17
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Frugal wrote in post #11464747 (external link)
Yes but for a given shutter speed you can shoot in a 1 stop darker ambient with f/2.8 vs f/4. - provided the DOF works for you


You know, if the flash light does not spill to the background, you can get as much shallower DOF shooting at F8 as in shooting at F2.....:)


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gasrocks
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Dec 16, 2010 18:54 |  #18

Flash and lenses: who knew there was a connection?


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Dec 16, 2010 18:58 |  #19

I have both these great lenses. For indoor flash work, I just love the 24-70 on my 1DmkIII with the 580 EXII. Just a great combination. I can quickly switch off the flash and use f2.8 for low light non flash shots. Outdoors I always go for the 24-105, more versatile. If I could only have one lens it would be a real sophie's choice.


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xarqi
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Dec 16, 2010 19:05 |  #20

gasrocks wrote in post #11465626 (external link)
Flash and lenses: who knew there was a connection?

Not me, yet, but there's a hint of one from JeffreyG.

I always just figured that flash illuminated the scene, and a lens let the light through to the sensor; two functionally separate areas.

Granted, if one is working on the edge, where a flash is giving its all, and ISO is maxed out (practically speaking with respect to noise), where DoF is not a limitation, a faster lens could make a difference. Seems a rare set of circumstances to me.




  
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JeffreyG
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Dec 16, 2010 19:35 |  #21

xarqi wrote in post #11465711 (external link)
Not me, yet, but there's a hint of one from JeffreyG.

I always just figured that flash illuminated the scene, and a lens let the light through to the sensor; two functionally separate areas.

Granted, if one is working on the edge, where a flash is giving its all, and ISO is maxed out (practically speaking with respect to noise), where DoF is not a limitation, a faster lens could make a difference. Seems a rare set of circumstances to me.

My wife has the desktop computer tied up so I cannot post an example.

But I recently shot some pictures of a work gathering at my boss' house. I put a 1/2 CTO gel on the 430EX and shot at 1/25, ISO1600 and f/4 (ironically, I was using the 24-105L at the time despite my post). This approach preserves ambient lighting which was needed because my boss has a big house.

So - yes, aperture can matter with flash if you are in a room that is bigger than a bounced flash can light.


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enrigonz
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Dec 16, 2010 19:36 |  #22

The Canon 18-55 IS will do great with flash also, not sure why you want to spend all that money on L glass to worry about flash....


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xarqi
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Dec 16, 2010 20:08 |  #23

JeffreyG wrote in post #11465863 (external link)
My wife has the desktop computer tied up so I cannot post an example.

But I recently shot some pictures of a work gathering at my boss' house. I put a 1/2 CTO gel on the 430EX and shot at 1/25, ISO1600 and f/4 (ironically, I was using the 24-105L at the time despite my post). This approach preserves ambient lighting which was needed because my boss has a big house.

So - yes, aperture can matter with flash if you are in a room that is bigger than a bounced flash can light.

That'll be the edge I was referring to. Mind you, a 580 EX would have helped too, but not a whole stop.




  
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JeffreyG
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Dec 16, 2010 20:25 |  #24

xarqi wrote in post #11466069 (external link)
That'll be the edge I was referring to. Mind you, a 580 EX would have helped too, but not a whole stop.

580EX would have made no difference as the flash was not firing at full power.

Here are some examples. The issue is quite simple in a large room. The background will often be several times as far from the light source (the ceiling hot spot in this case) as the subject. So ETTL will expose the subject.

If you do not expose the background reasonably well for ambient light, the background will become a dark cave. Also - you must gel the flash or the subjects and backgrounds will have very different color temperatures.

So here is ISO1600, f/4 and 1/25. Flash freezes the subjects so I can live with such a low shutter speed.


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xarqi
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Dec 16, 2010 21:46 |  #25

OK - so - if you'd had an f/2.8 lens, would that have made a difference? Say the ambient light was half as bright. You could open up that extra stop, or, since you are freezing the subjects with flash anyway, you could double the exposure time.

I'm still looking for a "non-edge" condition where lens speed interacts with flash usage.




  
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TooManyShots
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Dec 16, 2010 22:00 |  #26
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xarqi wrote in post #11466571 (external link)
OK - so - if you'd had an f/2.8 lens, would that have made a difference? Say the ambient light was half as bright. You could open up that extra stop, or, since you are freezing the subjects with flash anyway, you could double the exposure time.

I'm still looking for a "non-edge" condition where lens speed interacts with flash usage.

Looking at the shots, I think the ambient light is bright enough for people have a dinner under. Since he is bouncing the flash off the ceiling, that alone will contribute additional ambient light fill. Also, he isn't using the flash as fill flash. It is not important to have a properly exposed ambient light. He only needed to fill the background. The flash here is the main light source.


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xarqi
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Dec 16, 2010 22:53 |  #27

TooManyShots wrote in post #11466642 (external link)
Looking at the shots, I think the ambient light is bright enough for people have a dinner under. Since he is bouncing the flash off the ceiling, that alone will contribute additional ambient light fill. Also, he isn't using the flash as fill flash. It is not important to have a properly exposed ambient light. He only needed to fill the background. The flash here is the main light source.

I *think* you are saying what I think is going on - background illuminated by available (= 'ambient') light; subjects illuminated by bounced flash.

My most recent question was, how would a faster lens have helped?

My scenario was that if the ambient light (illuminating the background) was half as bright, a one stop faster lens would do the job if DoF wasn't an issue.

But, since the subjects are frozen with flash, would not halving the shutter speed be equally effective?




  
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TooManyShots
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Dec 16, 2010 23:03 |  #28
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xarqi wrote in post #11466866 (external link)
I *think* you are saying what I think is going on - background illuminated by available (= 'ambient') light; subjects illuminated by bounced flash.

My most recent question was, how would a faster lens have helped?

My scenario was that if the ambient light (illuminating the background) was half as bright, a one stop faster lens would do the job if DoF wasn't an issue.

But, since the subjects are frozen with flash, would not halving the shutter speed be equally effective?


You have to ask him if he did need to tone down the exposure during the post processing. I clearly didn't think he would need ISO1600 to get in all the ambient light. You don't want too slow of the shutter speed since it will generate noise too even if the ISO isn't high. I don't think a f2.8 lens would make any difference here. Back to the OP questions, a F2.8 lens won't make low light shooting easier than a F4 lens.


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Dec 16, 2010 23:25 |  #29

I have a preference to f/2.8 zooms so I'd go for more "pop" separating the subject/background with a faster zoom in both ambient or flash exposure situations or mix of both.

If your shooting groups and stuck in close distances you must stop down. Doesn't matter if you using an f/4 or f/2.8 in this case.

However bokeh is without a doubt more pleasant in the 24-70L.


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xarqi
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Dec 16, 2010 23:30 |  #30

TooManyShots wrote in post #11466905 (external link)
You don't want too slow of the shutter speed since it will generate noise too even if the ISO isn't high.

:shock: News to me - what's the physical basis for that? I'd have thought the longer the better, as photon noise would average out over a longer period.




  
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24-70 or 24-105 for indoor flash
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