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Thread started 23 Dec 2010 (Thursday) 14:49
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paularoids
Hatchling
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Dec 23, 2010 14:49 |  #1

Hi guys, I'm hoping you can help me with some needed advice.

I've been practicing and shooting for peanuts with my Pentax K-X, and have gotten to the point where I'm ready to take the next serious step into professional photography. Here are some tidbits to help set the stage for my question. I'm doing all this on my own. I eventually want to shoot weddings (starting as a 2nd shooter and eventually booking my own jobs). I'm looking to invest in gear and I'm looking to just make one good investment into a camera and lens that I can use for the next few years. The dilemma, of course is the cost of the investment, so I want to choose wisely. Whatever I pick now, I have to live with for a while since I can't afford the cost/loss of having to sell what I just bought to upgrade again.

Granted that I'm going to have a slow start (still booking minor family and baby shoots), I want to go with at least a 7D in the case that I get my first opportunity to shoot a wedding. I've been getting fabulous shots with my K-X (amazing photos!), but I realize there's no way I can use that for a paying customer's wedding. I realize it is also about the "perception" of having a photographer who has the right gear that sells jobs.

So, to make a long story short, based on my research, here are my two options: (I also acknowledge that I need two cameras if I go on my own)

Of course, going with Canon since many wedding photographers use the same, and share lenses equipment with their 2nd shooters (well, the cheaper and under-geared 2nd shooters anyway)

1. Buy a 7D and stick with the kit lens for now (and maybe invest in the cheap 50 f1.8 cannon prime lens). This initial investment will run me about $2,000.

2. Buy a 60D body and buy either the 28-70 f2.8 L or the 28-105(I believe) f4 L. (and the cheap 50 prime). This investment will run me about $2000+ as well.

I understand a 60D with a kit lens is a no. (or is it?)

What do you think? Any advice, thoughts? Thank you!!

(also, any advice for someone who is just starting out and about to take the next big step is also very appreciated)




  
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TheBrick3
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Dec 23, 2010 15:35 |  #2

1) Other than overestimating the zooming abilities of a white lens, your clients don't care at all about your equipment.

2) Don't buy an overpriced camera like a 60D.

3) Glass before body.


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MJPhotos24
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Dec 23, 2010 15:48 |  #3

I'm ready to take the next serious step into professional photography.

After reading I question this comment. Serious to me would be taking classes, getting a business loan so you don't have to ask what gear to get and would know because you've studied what is needed at weddings. Learning, learning, learning, and learning some more as you take small steps forward. Knowing what you need to run an actual business - that's more than just gear, it's licenses, it's insurance, it's everything.

I'm doing all this on my own.

I know of only one photographer that didn't do it on his own, and he's getting out of the business because he didn't take the right outlook or route while trying it. Almost all do it on their own, and most fail.

I eventually want to shoot weddings (starting as a 2nd shooter and eventually booking my own jobs).

This is a good route, instead of buying any camera and saying you're now a pro which is the first mistake too many people make. Take your time and learn, build up your portfolio as an assistant or second shooter, practice on your own, even hire a model if you have to and practice different portraits and such you'd do in the field you want (weddings).

The dilemma, of course is the cost of the investment, so I want to choose wisely.

I'd hope the first thought is not cost and is what you need, cost is second. It's amazing that photographers shop this way but then complain about clients who do the same.

I've been getting fabulous shots with my K-X (amazing photos!), but I realize there's no way I can use that for a paying customer's wedding.

What you see as amazing is probably not what others see as amazing. Without seeing any tough to judge (i.e. impossible), but there's a huge difference in snaps to decent to good to great to amazing.

I realize it is also about the "perception" of having a photographer who has the right gear that sells jobs.

Most clients can't tell the difference unless you're really using a cheapo, which you honestly are. Sure it does fine for snaps, and in the right hands could do some good work, but for the most part you could walk in there with a hassleblad and the client wouldn't know the difference.

I also acknowledge that I need two cameras if I go on my own

You need two bodies as an assistant!! I wouldn't hire someone that doesn't have backup gear even as a second shooter, their crap breaks down and my backup gear is now gone! What if my crap breaks down?? Sure some will volunteer the gear and hope, but they won't be happy about it.

many wedding photographers use the same, and share lenses equipment with their 2nd shooters (well, the cheaper and under-geared 2nd shooters anyway)

Really? I don't know a one who would do this because they use the gear, unless they have spares to back up their spare...but not one wedding photographer I know would do this because honestly they don't. They have 3-4 bodies and using 2-3 at any given time and that 4th one better be ready to go in an emergency. I don't do weddings, but when I'm with another shooter even if I'm not using it nobody else is. #1 insurance reasons if you break it, #2 I switch a lot and may need it immediately.

1. Buy a 7D and stick with the kit lens for now (and maybe invest in the cheap 50 f1.8 cannon prime lens). This initial investment will run me about $2,000.

2. Buy a 60D body and buy either the 28-70 f2.8 L or the 28-105(I believe) f4 L. (and the cheap 50 prime). This investment will run me about $2000+ as well.

I understand a 60D with a kit lens is a no. (or is it?)


It's all about NEEDS, research what you NEED to do the job. Since I don't do weddings won't even bother to pretend. I would guess high ISO performance, flash, low light lenses (so kits are out), bracket, etc.

also, any advice for someone who is just starting out and about to take the next big step is also very appreciated)

LEARN, join boards like this as you have and ask questions (but check the search button first so you don't drive people nuts!). See what the pros are doing, those in your area might not be too sharing as you try to take a piece of the pie but often ones around the world are willing to help with some advice. Personally I did 4 years of trying to learn on my own before trying to become "professional" and even that was not enough. The day you think your images are great and you're done learning is the day you stop shooting, it's a never ending changing process. Learn and take steps you're ready to take, some try to jump ahead too fast and it's a mess, others hold back too much, you need to know when to move forward and when to just take a step back.


Freelance Photographer & Co-founder of Four Seam Images
Mike Janes Photography (external link) - Four Seam Images LLC (external link)
FSI is a baseball oriented photo agency and official licensee of MiLB/MLB.
@FourSeamImages (instagram/twitter)
@MikeJanesPhotography (instagram)
@MikeJanesPhotog (twitter)

  
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Mike ­ Hoyer
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Dec 23, 2010 17:20 |  #4

Good advice from above, it must be a Mike thing.

My advice is to try and work for a successful photographer for a while, be that months or years. Do all the dirty work and boring jobs - you will learn a lot more doing than that than just on a forum.


Motorsport Photographer

  
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Ernst-Ulrich ­ Schafer
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Dec 23, 2010 20:02 |  #5

Great advise from MJ!!!! Take your time and practice alot!!!!


Today is the Day: Ruth Bernhard

  
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airfrogusmc
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Dec 23, 2010 20:04 |  #6

MJPhotos24 wrote in post #11504385 (external link)
I'm ready to take the next serious step into professional photography.

After reading I question this comment. Serious to me would be taking classes, getting a business loan so you don't have to ask what gear to get and would know because you've studied what is needed at weddings. Learning, learning, learning, and learning some more as you take small steps forward. Knowing what you need to run an actual business - that's more than just gear, it's licenses, it's insurance, it's everything.

I'm doing all this on my own.

I know of only one photographer that didn't do it on his own, and he's getting out of the business because he didn't take the right outlook or route while trying it. Almost all do it on their own, and most fail.

I eventually want to shoot weddings (starting as a 2nd shooter and eventually booking my own jobs).

This is a good route, instead of buying any camera and saying you're now a pro which is the first mistake too many people make. Take your time and learn, build up your portfolio as an assistant or second shooter, practice on your own, even hire a model if you have to and practice different portraits and such you'd do in the field you want (weddings).

The dilemma, of course is the cost of the investment, so I want to choose wisely.

I'd hope the first thought is not cost and is what you need, cost is second. It's amazing that photographers shop this way but then complain about clients who do the same.

I've been getting fabulous shots with my K-X (amazing photos!), but I realize there's no way I can use that for a paying customer's wedding.

What you see as amazing is probably not what others see as amazing. Without seeing any tough to judge (i.e. impossible), but there's a huge difference in snaps to decent to good to great to amazing.

I realize it is also about the "perception" of having a photographer who has the right gear that sells jobs.

Most clients can't tell the difference unless you're really using a cheapo, which you honestly are. Sure it does fine for snaps, and in the right hands could do some good work, but for the most part you could walk in there with a hassleblad and the client wouldn't know the difference.

I also acknowledge that I need two cameras if I go on my own

You need two bodies as an assistant!! I wouldn't hire someone that doesn't have backup gear even as a second shooter, their crap breaks down and my backup gear is now gone! What if my crap breaks down?? Sure some will volunteer the gear and hope, but they won't be happy about it.

many wedding photographers use the same, and share lenses equipment with their 2nd shooters (well, the cheaper and under-geared 2nd shooters anyway)

Really? I don't know a one who would do this because they use the gear, unless they have spares to back up their spare...but not one wedding photographer I know would do this because honestly they don't. They have 3-4 bodies and using 2-3 at any given time and that 4th one better be ready to go in an emergency. I don't do weddings, but when I'm with another shooter even if I'm not using it nobody else is. #1 insurance reasons if you break it, #2 I switch a lot and may need it immediately.

1. Buy a 7D and stick with the kit lens for now (and maybe invest in the cheap 50 f1.8 cannon prime lens). This initial investment will run me about $2,000.

2. Buy a 60D body and buy either the 28-70 f2.8 L or the 28-105(I believe) f4 L. (and the cheap 50 prime). This investment will run me about $2000+ as well.

I understand a 60D with a kit lens is a no. (or is it?)


It's all about NEEDS, research what you NEED to do the job. Since I don't do weddings won't even bother to pretend. I would guess high ISO performance, flash, low light lenses (so kits are out), bracket, etc.

also, any advice for someone who is just starting out and about to take the next big step is also very appreciated)

LEARN, join boards like this as you have and ask questions (but check the search button first so you don't drive people nuts!). See what the pros are doing, those in your area might not be too sharing as you try to take a piece of the pie but often ones around the world are willing to help with some advice. Personally I did 4 years of trying to learn on my own before trying to become "professional" and even that was not enough. The day you think your images are great and you're done learning is the day you stop shooting, it's a never ending changing process. Learn and take steps you're ready to take, some try to jump ahead too fast and it's a mess, others hold back too much, you need to know when to move forward and when to just take a step back.

Great advice!!!




  
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airfrogusmc
I'm a chimper. There I said it...
37,970 posts
Gallery: 179 photos
Best ofs: 6
Likes: 13442
Joined May 2007
Location: Oak Park, Illinois
     
Dec 23, 2010 20:04 |  #7

Mike Hoyer wrote in post #11504863 (external link)
Good advice from above, it must be a Mike thing.

My advice is to try and work for a successful photographer for a while, be that months or years. Do all the dirty work and boring jobs - you will learn a lot more doing than that than just on a forum.

And more great advice!!!




  
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paularoids
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Hatchling
2 posts
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Dec 24, 2010 01:38 |  #8

Thank you for the great advice. I appreciate the honest (and down to earth) feedback!!




  
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jra
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Dec 24, 2010 05:27 |  #9

MJPhotos24 wrote in post #11504385 (external link)
Serious to me would be taking classes, getting a business loan so you don't have to ask what gear to get and would know because you've studied what is needed at weddings.

All great advice with the exception of the loan (IMO). Borrowed money equals increased risk and the last thing a new photographer needs is increased risk when attempting to start a business. Instead, work, save and pay cash. It may take a little longer (no instant gratification) but you'll be much more secure not to mention the peace of mind of not having to worry about making payments each month. :)




  
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Shüter
Hatchling
2 posts
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Dec 24, 2010 05:27 |  #10

The advice given by MJ is quite sound and the blunt points should get you on your way (only slightly bruised).
I can't give you much in the way of advice except that I have done some hands-on research and, knowing your chosen path of wedding photography, I would shy away from the 60D. It is overpriced for what it does and it is quite noisy [IMO]...any noise during a wedding ceremony in a large church tends to amplify horribly in those quiet moments.
The 7D (my main body right now) is a pretty good choice. It has some excellent features including the HD video capabilities (which might just come in handy for wedding footage). I do agree somewhat with MJ that joe-client wouldn't be able to tell a hassleblad from a brownie but on the same note, said client would still be able to tell if you weren't using professional grade equipment. It's fairly simple to differentiate a DSLR from a PHD (Press Here Dummy) camera nowadays. There are models (like the G10) that masquerade as an SLR but I would gamble that the client wouldn't be at all impressed if you showed up sporting one of those puppies.




  
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MJPhotos24
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Dec 24, 2010 14:29 |  #11

jra wrote in post #11507213 (external link)
All great advice with the exception of the loan (IMO). Borrowed money equals increased risk and the last thing a new photographer needs is increased risk when attempting to start a business. Instead, work, save and pay cash. It may take a little longer (no instant gratification) but you'll be much more secure not to mention the peace of mind of not having to worry about making payments each month. :)

This is actually what I did, it was a progression from kit gear in the film days and just kept adding on and on and on, upgrading, getting only gear I needed, etc. However, right now business loans - if you can get the bank to release the darn money - are cheap. If someone wanted to get serious but didn't have the capital already saved it's the only way to go. That's IF they are ready to move forward, most think they are before they actually are creating more risk. If someone is actually ready, through and through, then it's not a horrible option.


Freelance Photographer & Co-founder of Four Seam Images
Mike Janes Photography (external link) - Four Seam Images LLC (external link)
FSI is a baseball oriented photo agency and official licensee of MiLB/MLB.
@FourSeamImages (instagram/twitter)
@MikeJanesPhotography (instagram)
@MikeJanesPhotog (twitter)

  
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amfoto1
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Dec 25, 2010 13:11 |  #12

Hi and welcome to POTN,

Realistically, you would be very wise to work as a 2nd shooter for a while and learn the ropes. If you have a good mentor or two, that will make your transition much, much easier. Look for an established, successful shooter who is willing to pay reasonably for a 2nd. Get permission to use your images in your own portfolio and be careful about overly restrictive non-compete contract clauses.

I would not recommend going into debt or quitting your day job yet. Eventually if you have a really solid business plan and are very certain of your market potential and have done a cost of doing business analysis and developed a workable business plan, a loan is a possibility. But you really don't want that hanging over your head until you know a lot more about the business than you do now.

Shoot as a second, grow your equipment gradually, learn the business... Then in a few years you might be ready to strike out on your own.

$2000 is nothing. I'd estimate starting from scratch and wanting to go directly to shooting as the primary at weddings as your occupation, you would need at least 10X that much just to buy equipment (and probably at least another $20K-30K to live on for the first year or two until you start to turn a profit... maybe more if cost of living is high in your area).

You need two cameras... minimum. Probably the best models currently for wedding photography - all things considered, including value - would be 5DII. The 5DII excels because it's full frame (maximum control over depth of field is desirable for portrature) and because it's very capable at higher ISOs. A very doable second best: 7D. A 60D might serve too... It's a lot better camera than most people give it credit for being. 1D Mark III/IV and 1Ds Mark III are perhaps the most ideal, for those who have little or no budget restrictions.... These would be the most cost effective for heavy, rigorous use. 7D is next in this respect, 5DII is third and I would guess about the same as 60D. But keep in mind that you'll need two cameras. You cannot afford to miss an event because your one and only camera is broken.

Lenses are even more critical than the camera(s) you choose. The lens can determine your particular "look" and you need good, reliable ones that can give you solid results in difficult shooting situations. Canon 24-70/2.8L is one of the most popular for wedding photogs. The 24-105 is another that some like to use, but for portraiture a larger aperture is often better. A 70-200/2.8 IS is another, but instead of zooms some choose to use prime lenses such as 50/1.4 or 50/1.2L, 85/1.8 or 85/1.2L, 135/2L. No, "cheap" or entry level lenses such as the 50/1.8 II or the kit zooms are not a good idea mainly because they will not hold up to rigorous use... Get at least the 50/1.4. You want to avoid equipment failures as much as possible when shooting once in a lifetime events. Also, if Uncle Bob shows up with better camera equipment than you, you'll look pretty silly (although Uncle Bob likely doesn't know how to use it very well). You might also want a wider lens, as well... such as a 17-40/4L or 16-35/2.8L II, or primes like the 20/2.8, 24/1.4L, 35/1.4L (the latter two are really only wide on full frame cameras).

You will probably want to adapt this lens list a bit, if you choose to use a crop sensor camera such as the 7D or 60D instead of FF 5DII. Another approach is to have one (at least) of each, a full frame camera and a crop sensor camera, because this "leverages" your lens kit to be more useful.

You also need a minimum of two flashes. There are various ones available, Canon's 430EX would likely be the minimum requirement. An accessory battery pack can be important to keep you shooting through the entire day, with minimal interruptions.

Then there are all the specialty items to consider, that help you stand apart from other photographers and offer customers more reasons to choose you over the competition. Some sort of portable studio lighting might be desirable to do more formally posed work on location. A macro lens might be needed for cake, bouquet, and ring close-ups. A macro flash might be needed. A Tilt-Shift lens can be useful for front of the church shots, or for unusual shallow but controlled DOF effects. I consider ultra large aperture lenses such as the 50/1.2L and 85/1.2L II as somewhat specialized tools, too. None of these things are cheap, and you probably just need good, solid "basic" lenses to start out.

You have to know how to use it all under pressure, without missing a beat. You should be completely familiar with the various exposure and focusing modes of your chosen camera(s), when, where and how to use them. You have to anticipate and be ready to get the shot. In a sense, the photographer becomes the choreographer of a wedding. A wedding is no place to learn your craft or experiment until all the customer's required shots are in the can, each and every one done right.

Yet, the creative side is only a smaller part of the equation.... probably somewhere between 10 and 25%. The other 75 to 90% is the business side, and this is where even some of the most talented photographers fail. Negotiation, sales & marketing, customer interviews, legal aspects, bookkeeping, pricing, order fulfillment, quality control, follow up, business planning and many other details that don't involve camera and lens at all will usually be your very biggest concerns.

There is a wedding specific forum here on POTN.... I suggest spending some time there, reading the "stickies".... also go to Amazon and buy all the books you can find.... then work for a while as a 2nd shooter, building up your camera system and becoming an expert at using it under pressure... while learning the business aspects, as well.

There are hordes of "kit camera wedding photogs" out there bottom trolling... I counted 717 ads on my local Craigslist the other day, the vast majority offering cheap wedding packages. I don't recommend you join their ranks.... With their business model, most will be gone back to their day job in a year or so. But each one that goes OBX will be likely be replaced by two or three, each with the same dream, a gleam in their eye, and a new Rebel + 18-55 IS tightly clutched in their hands.

Might want to shoot for a somewhat higher market niche if you expect to have a sustainable, profitable business.


Alan Myers (external link) "Walk softly and carry a big lens."
5DII, 7DII, 7D, M5 & others. 10-22mm, Meike 12/2.8,Tokina 12-24/4, 20/2.8, EF-M 22/2, TS 24/3.5L, 24-70/2.8L, 28/1.8, 28-135 IS (x2), TS 45/2.8, 50/1.4, Sigma 56/1.4, Tamron 60/2.0, 70-200/4L IS, 70-200/2.8 IS, 85/1.8, Tamron 90/2.5, 100/2.8 USM, 100-400L II, 135/2L, 180/3.5L, 300/4L IS, 300/2.8L IS, 500/4L IS, EF 1.4X II, EF 2X II. Flashes, strobes & various access. - FLICKR (external link)

  
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