Is it ok to turn out bad work if its free?

RDKirk wrote in post #11606765
I don't see you making reference to the issue of bad work

Refer to the last sentence in post #15. My stance is clear that it's never OK to produce bad work, so where's the problem?

OK, I'll humour you. let's say you're in the OP's position - would you go to a prospective client and say, "All I've got is a bunch of snapshots that I've taken as a hobbyist, but could you give me money upon the assumption that I'll produce professional work in return?".

Assuming that the prospective client is not a complete idiot, the answer would be no. Therefore, one needs to create the opportunity to produce commissioned work as an example to show to other clients. Now, at the beginning of one's career and depending on one's level of negotiation skills, one can offer to do the work for free or at a reduced cost, with the agreement being that the photos can be used for promotional purposes.

And yes, I know I haven't gotten to CDI's point yet. In the above scenario, if CDI is to be believed, producing good work for that client is going to ruin you. Now do you really agree with that?

By the way, even as an established firm we have produced free work for new clients who offer the opportunity to break into new markets - we don't compromise on quality and it has worked for us.

the best thing in this scenario, is to call up some good friends and practice, practice, practice. normally they are very happy, and flattered to help!

mhazlett wrote in post #11606967
the best thing in this scenario, is to call up some good friends and practice, practice, practice. normally they are very happy, and flattered to help!

It also wouldn't hurt to get said friends to treat it as commissioned work, with payment in terms of honest critique.

cdifoto wrote in post #11592546
Doing bad work free won't ruin you. Doing bad work and charging a lot for it might ruin you, but probably won't. It'll just be harder to get work by word of mouth.

What is most likely to ruin you is doing good/amazing/awesome work free.

Don't just quote part of it to improve your chance at a almost correct statement, quote all of it.

Doing good work for free, will bring people out of the woodwork from all directions.

Some will be your friends, some will be friends of friends....
Now you need to charge, the prints are costly. People complain, well you did there's for free.. You haggle till you at least cover the cost of the print. More people from.....

Now you think HAULT! - From this point on I'm going to charge a fair price.
- but everybody is use to free or at cost, so what do they do to get there (------(___Free Fix__)>----- they look else where.

So, what are you saying?

"Doing bad work free won't ruin you"="Doing good work for free, will bring people out of the woodwork from all directions. "?

"Doing bad work and charging a lot for it might ruin you, but probably won't. It'll just be harder to get work by word of mouth"="Doing good work for free, will bring people out of the woodwork from all directions. "?

"What is most likely to ruin you is doing good/amazing/awesome work free"="Doing good work for free, will bring people out of the woodwork from all directions."?

If you're going to make stuff up, I may as well ignore you. I don't agree with RDKirk but unlike you, he's not spewing gibberish.

TopHatMoments wrote in post #11606763
Ah the judge, I just watched that funny clip. The judge nailed her because she didn't know when to keep her mouth shut and listen to unbiased facts.

Not that it matters, but the actual reason the Judge decided to grant the couple more money was so that they could pay to have the photos redone. Rent tuxes and what not and pay a real photographer. Basically to provide the service they were promised in the first place. Which I thought was fair.

Side comment:

I couldn't tell if the photos were actually "soft" on the you tube quality video but I will take the judges word for it. The pose looked decent in one of the photos they showed, but if it wasn't sharp or in focus that doesn't really matter any. I'm sure the photos from inside the church were miserable shooting with an xt, kit lens, and no flash. Loved how the "photographer" didn't know how fast the lens she uses is. And seemed generally confused by the term f stop.

#51;
I see by the bit and piecing of sectioned sentences above, you must have a hobby of patch work quilting.
---------------
#52;
The judges words were ( no you don't listen, that's the problem ) but ah it's just a tv show. Now I can't say, I've never seen it.

Actually, no. That is not a necessity. One can get actual commissioned work at a fee commensurate with one's level of quality without first doing it free or cheaply beyond--as I originally said--initial offering to friends and family.

RDKirk wrote in post #11607775
Actually, no. That is not a necessity. One can get actual commissioned work at a fee commensurate with one's level of quality without first doing it free or cheaply beyond--as I originally said--initial offering to friends and family.

I would gladly do work with friends and family but dont feel like it is the same experience as shooting and directing a stranger. Are you saying that you think its ok to do work that you know to be subpar but since its cheap, its ok?

JakAHearts wrote in post #11607829
I would gladly do work with friends and family but dont feel like it is the same experience as shooting and directing a stranger. Are you saying that you think its ok to do work that you know to be subpar but since its cheap, its ok?

You can't derive that from what I said and what I've said to you before, posts #7 and #9.

Sorry, I wasnt keeping track of who said what from 4 pages ago. I read through the replies, take what I can from the advice and go on my way.

I do appreciate your posts. Both 7 and 9.

RDKirk wrote in post #11607775
Actually, no. That is not a necessity. One can get actual commissioned work at a fee commensurate with one's level of quality without first doing it free or cheaply beyond--as I originally said--initial offering to friends and family.

If we want to be purists about this, I'll acknowledge that it's not strictly a necessity to do initial jobs for free. Being equally purist about it, however, without examples (of commissioned work, not of hobby photos) in the first place, would one not be challenged to determine what is commensurate?

In any case, that's all academic. I disagreed with CDI's statement that "what is most likely to ruin you is doing good/amazing/awesome work free". You've objected that the initial example I presented is inappropriate, and as much as I disagree with your judgement, I have also said that we have successfully used the offer of free work to new clients to break into new markets.

If nothing else, one of our most loyal clients, worth at least $150,000 a year for eleven years running, started the relationship with our company founder performing free analysis as part of an academic project - they were so impressed with his work they asked to pay him for the next project and also opened up the financial services market to us. That doesn't sound like the path to ruin, does it?

Now, even if we accept your example of going with commensurate fees with friends and family, how does your example support CDI's claim that doing good work for free is going to ruin you?

Now, even if we accept your example of going with commensurate fees with friends and family, how does your example support CDI's claim that doing good work for free is going to ruin you?

I think you misunderstood me. I learned the craft upon friends and family, charging nothing to them, until my work was reliably and consistently professional enough to begin charging.

When I started doing "commissioned" work, it was from the beginning at fees commensurate with my level of quality, never free or underpriced.

Just to be clear, what I mean by commissioned work is something that you are doing to someone else's requirements. For example, if you take photographs of your nephew's baptism, while you may keep the photos for your own reference and enjoyment, there is an explicit understanding that the end product is a visual record of the event for the child's parents.

This may seem to be a case of potayto-potahto, but what distinguishes commisioned work as defined above from photos that you would take for your own purposes is the need to consider what the other person, be it a friend, family member or paying customer, wants.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but did learning your craft not include developing an understanding of how to deliver what that other person wants? If I'm not wrong, then I would assert that your "learning the craft" phase in fact constitutes commisioned work, and that your having done it for free doesn't seem to have done you any harm.