help with hockey team shot

I think this thread is best in lighting vs sports talk since my question is really about off camera flash.

Background: I shoot mostly outdoor sports and occasionally indoor action hockey at the mite level (age 8ish). I was shooting a game yesterday and the coaches approached me with the old 'you must be a pro with a big camera like that' line....and they followed by asking (OK maybe begging) me to shoot the team shot tomorrow night. They only have a MWPSC (Mom With Point Shoot Camera) and they would prefer a higher quality shot to sell to parents.

So, I can confidently do the team shot with ambient light, but of course the light in the arena is poor and I would be struggling with high ISO and stretching it to get a f8 or f11 aperture.

In comes Santa....for Christmas I was fortunate to receive a AB800, 7 inch reflector, light stand, battery pack. (you can see where this thread is going.....)

I won't have much or any opportunity to set up and practice before the team shot tomorrow. I can practice at home, but not in the arena or on ice. I am looking for advice about the best way to set up my lighting and settings to start with. These kids are 8 years old and they are not exactly excited to stand still for 3 minutes while a guy with camera fiddles around.

I have:
7D, I'll probably use the 24-70. I plan on setting the kids up in three rows on about the blue line facing center ice, I'll set camera on tripod at center ice. any info is appreciated, but specifically I'd like to hear suggestions about camera mode (Av, M, or other); I think my shutter will be at 1/250th? f/11....am I on the right track? How about the AB800 settings?

thanks for the info.
Based on your comment about the AB800 light, I should have the AB set to full power?

Also, the distance from blue line to red line is approx 30 feet.

another question: should I point the AB head towards the arena ceiling (whitish and maybe 25 feet high) for bounce or towards the kids?

Your camera's exposure mode dial MUST be set to "M". You shutter speed CANNOT be set to anything faster than the "maximum sync speed" documented in your owner's manual.

As far as the f-stop setting goes, that depends on how much light you have and what you've got the ISO value set to. Because a single B800 is not going to put out a whole lot of light, I would suggest your setting the ISO value to at least 1600. The flash unit, of course, should be set to 100% output.

I am assuming that you do not have a decent handheld light meter that can measure the light from your flash, so you'll have to experiment with the actual f-stop setting. That means getting to the venue early and having a helper or two to stand in for the group. Take a few shots and look at the images on your computer to choose the best exposure setting. The LCD display is not suitable to determine the proper exposure level and you can easily be fooled by the histogram (especially with the white ice) if you have not done some serious practice with it.

Take a good solid step-ladder with you so you can get the camera six to eight feet up off the floor. That way, you'll be able to get all the faces visible to the camera. Get your light above the camera by a few feet.

If you won't have any time to set up your exposure at the venue, I'd suggest that you either use ambient light and let the camera do its thing for exposure or beg out of the task until you have time to get a light meter. With a light meter, you could have an assistant pop the flash once and you'd then know what f-stop to set up in the camera.

You're going to be really struggling for enough light with the B800 at 30 feet from the subjects. Aim it directly at them. Get yourself and the light much closer and up high like I suggested above and you'll have more light to use.

Sorry - I deleted the original version of this while you were answering it.

SkipD wrote in post #11703772
....
Sorry - I deleted the original version of this while you were answering it.

no problem It looks like I was having a conversation with myself....wouldn't be the first time

Here is a "practice" shot I took last night after the coach asked me about this. I wanted to get an idea for light to think about. (unedited, auto WB)

ooops...looks like exif didn't follow: it was f4, 1/80th, +2/3, 800iso

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How many kids? And can you get some modifier for your AB800?

AB800 using a softbox will put out f8 at 10 feet when at 1/2 power. This is at ISO100.

Why do you need to be 30 ft back? With a 24-70, you can be in closer right? Like Bobby said, if you can grab a good size umbrella, bounce into it, with it right behind you and raised up a good 10 feet, you should be able to light a youth hockey team. Not much different than doing a formal wedding shot.

tomd wrote in post #11703785
Here is a "practice" shot I took last night after the coach asked me about this. I wanted to get an idea for light to think about. (unedited, auto WB)

ooops...looks like exif didn't follow: it was f4, 1/80th, +2/3, 800iso

What type of lighting are they using? I suspect that it's some sort of gas-discharge lighting such as fluorescent or something like it. If so, you definitely want to either overpower it with your flash or use the existing lighting to your best advantage.

Assuming that you're in the U.S., as you don't say in your profile, you should use ONLY 1/120, 1/60, or 1/30 second shutter speeds when using gas-discharge lighting that's being excited at power-line frequency. If you choose other shutter speeds, particularly faster ones, you'll have problems with erratic light level and colors.

If you want to use your flash, use the "maximum sync speed" listed in your user's manual to minimize the amount of the ambient light that's affecting the image. The only down side to this is that the background will be darker. You will need to experiment with the f-stop setting to get the kids well exposed, of course. You could experiment outdoors in the evening if you can emulate the same light-to-subject distance that you'd use on the ice.

bobbyz wrote in post #11704132
How many kids? And can you get some modifier for your AB800?

AB800 using a softbox will put out f8 at 10 feet when at 1/2 power. This is at ISO100.

There will be approx 20 kids. I do have an umbrella that I could bounce into.

ckale1 wrote in post #11704166
Why do you need to be 30 ft back? With a 24-70, you can be in closer right? Like Bobby said, if you can grab a good size umbrella, bounce into it, with it right behind you and raised up a good 10 feet, you should be able to light a youth hockey team. Not much different than doing a formal wedding shot.

Sounds good, thanks. I don't need to be 30 feet back, only as far back as my 24-70 needs to be and allow for the team pose. Thanks

SkipD wrote in post #11704228
What type of lighting are they using? I suspect that it's some sort of gas-discharge lighting such as fluorescent or something like it. If so, you definitely want to either overpower it with your flash or use the existing lighting to your best advantage.

Assuming that you're in the U.S., as you don't say in your profile, you should use ONLY 1/120, 1/60, or 1/30 second shutter speeds when using gas-discharge lighting that's being excited at power-line frequency. If you choose other shutter speeds, particularly faster ones, you'll have problems with erratic light level and colors.

If you want to use your flash, use the "maximum sync speed" listed in your user's manual to minimize the amount of the ambient light that's affecting the image. The only down side to this is that the background will be darker. You will need to experiment with the f-stop setting to get the kids well exposed, of course. You could experiment outdoors in the evening if you can emulate the same light-to-subject distance that you'd use on the ice.

I do notice color contrast in the action shots that are a result of the light frequency changing. I guess this is another reason to shoot RAW.
Thanks

30 kids in 3 rows is 10 per row. So you won't need more than 20 feet, I am guessing more like 15 feet when using 24-70. I could be wrong. Wait for wilt to chime in with his math.

AB800 should be OK with a 60" umbrella. Would be better if you can get another AB800 with 2nd umbrella to have it on other side next to the camera pointing straight. If not then use single AB800 with umbrella right above the camera. You can line the kids to have some arc with kids on the edges a little closer to you.

If you have access to the facility then take some test shots before at various settings. I would try ISO200, 400 etc. with apertures of f8/f11 atleast to see how it looks. Shoot at different shutters also to see effects of ambient and cycling lights on WB.

What do you have flash/strobe wise besides one AB800?

tomd wrote in post #11704556
I do notice color contrast in the action shots that are a result of the light frequency changing. I guess this is another reason to shoot RAW.

Nothing will correct the color shifts except using the correct shutter speed in the first place. The color shifts are often gradients throughout whole images and nothing can correct things across the whole image.

I have never shot a team photo, but I have taken some warm-up shots of the Pro's from behind the glass without flash.
5DMKII with the ISO @ 400 and a shutter speed of 1/200.
Here's what I came back with using my 24-105L @ F/5.0

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Thanks for all the replies.

When shooting with AB800 in this situation, should I simply leave WB on auto?

I have decided to take a group shot with ambient light (Av mode, f/11, raise iso to get 1/125th) for a back up, then switch camera settings to: M, iso 400, 1/250, f/11 and take a shot with strobe in a umbrella as described above. I'll tweak settings after chimp the histogram and take another (RAW)

tomd wrote in post #11711307
Thanks for all the replies.

When shooting with AB800 in this situation, should I simply leave WB on auto?

I have decided to take a group shot with ambient light (Av mode, f/11, raise iso to get 1/125th) for a back up, then switch camera settings to: M, iso 400, 1/250, f/11 and take a shot with strobe in a umbrella as described above. I'll tweak settings after chimp the histogram and take another (RAW)

If you're using a tripod, why shoot at 1/250 You can shoot it at 1/125 to let in more ambient light.
The faster shutter speed will reduce the ambient when using the strobe.
Aperture controls the strobe lighting.
You should shoot as slow as possible and use a tripod. Even 1/60 would be OK, especially if they're posed.

I would skip shooting in AV mode. Set it yourself and you won't need to change it for the ambient shots. When you let the camera make the exposure using Av, your images will vary in EV based on what the sensor is pointed at.
Av mode will not give you consistent EV over the range of shots you'll be taking. It's a semi auto mode and varies too much from shot to shot.

I have been shooting hockey team and individual portraits on the ice for several years, what i have found to work best for me is #1 make sure the rink turns the lights all the way up, most rinks vary the lighting output according to the event (practice vs games) take a custom white balance from the used ice, gray card or Expodisc, as Skip said at a slow shutter speed 60 should work good, use this setting for your white balance. If you have Lightroom or Canon DPP open a raw custom white balance image up and you can read the white balance temperature and dial that in the camera manually, I have found the cycling sodium vapor lights are usuially around 4200 and the newer daylight balanced flouresent bulbs are around 5100 Kelvin. if i am shooting at 4200 i will use a 1/2 CTO on my flashes, if i am shooting at 5100 i will use a 1/4 CTO gel, that gives me white boards and ice and good skin color from the gel. I shoot teams with the 24-70 at ISO 1600 ss 80 at F7.0 which gives me propper exposure or 1/3 under exposed without the flashes (your readings will vary, adjust accordingly, but do not change the shutter speed) with 580EX2 on stands with shoot thru umbrellas to my left and right about a foot above the players heads about 6 feet away pointed at the opposite side, example, right flash pointed at the the players at camera left, lighting in a cross light pattern, flashes set to between 1/4 and 1/2, use center point focus and focus on the players in the middle row then recompose. With the little guys you should not need a ladder if you pose them propperly, tall standing in back shorter on a bench in the middle and shortest and goalies in front sitting or on knees. I know you are using different lighting but i thought this might help.
Good luck, Hockey photography can be challanging.

Walt

Thanks Walt (and welcome to POTN) and everyone who shared their experience. The shoot went well. I haven't looked at the shots on the computer, but first thing in the morning I will process and post the results here. I did ask the Zamboni driver about turning on ALL the lights for the shot and he helped out.

LOL, the most difficult thing was getting the kids (7-8 year olds) to follow my instructions. the coach wanted them to hold their sticks in the shot, so i tried to have the front row have the stick blades pointing the same direction....what a disaster. I should have insisted they go without sticks, but oh well. I think they all had 3 cans of Mt. Dew because they sure are wiggly little guys. In the end, I learned a lot and I'm happy I can offer the parents a photo for purchase.
Tom