Price Negotiations

cdifoto wrote in post #11710836
Unless you don't actually sell the disk, that's not an unreasonable request. She's asking for less product to meet her budget. When she says editing, she probably means retouching. Explain that to her and see if you can work something out.

My lowest price/package is what I quoted her which includes the disk and the amount of time she requested. I didn't count the additional mileage that she would be normally charged as her location is 3 hours travel round trip, totaling 170 miles, another $85 dollars for travel mileage at govt. rate of .50 cents.

Editing for me begins the moment I upload the images to LR. I don't think she realizes the amount of time that is taken after a wedding to process the images. I'm hoping she will meet with me so I can go over this.

I don't give my work SOTC, or unedited.

I'd love to work with her, as she is a friend of a friend, but I also know the amount of time and work I put into the final images. And I was going to give not charge her my travel cost, which I thought was reasonable. Maybe I'll also add an additional hour of shooting time... (thoughts?)

u_loco_local wrote in post #11710745
Don't mean to hijack the thread, but I received a very similar email from a potential wedding client. Here's what she said:

"I'm going to evaluate my budget..I think the price is a bit more than I originally intended so let me circle back with you before I meet up with my friend on the 26th.

I really don't want wedding albums or photo editing, just 5 hours of photography with the photos on DVD/CD when complete. Not sure if that would impact price or not.

Thanks,"
I mean, really? I don't even know where to begin in my response back to her.

Where to begin loco? How about this - my wedding album packages already have the cost of the DVD images factored in to allow for time, materials and profit. You may want to consider such an approach.

Now if somebody wants full day coverage on disk only but minus the album, I will counter with a lower cost that reflects the deletion of the album manufacturing charges as well as the prints that would normally fill the pages. I'm still being paid for my time and skill (since that's already been factored in), but I'm not charging them for an album or prints they don't want. As CDI said, she's requesting less product/service at a lower cost to her which is not unreasonable.

I still prefer to sell prints and albums as I feel that a lot of beauty and expertise can be rendered into a physical, tangible image. But I do understand the reality of today's marketplace: many DON'T want prints and albums.

So this leaves me with a choice. I can be rigid with an old school pricing model that does not deliver what many want, or I can be flexible in my packages, always making sure to pay myself a fair wage. If the client still does not like that fee schedule, they are free to shop elsewhere as they always have.

As far as additional thoughts? Well - it's all about educating client on just how much work goes into professional work. You need to demonstrate and prove to her how your talent and efforts are well above the P&S or GWC. - Stu

sapearl wrote in post #11711030
Where to begin loco? How about this - my wedding album packages already have the cost of the DVD images factored in to allow for time, materials and profit. You may want to consider such an approach.

Now if somebody wants full day coverage on disk only but minus the album, I will counter with a lower cost that reflects the deletion of the album manufacturing charges as well as the prints that would normally fill the pages. I'm still being paid for my time and skill (since that's already been factored in), but I'm not charging them for an album or prints they don't want. As CDI said, she's requesting less product/service at a lower cost to her which is not unreasonable.

I still prefer to sell prints and albums as I feel that a lot of beauty and expertise can be rendered into a physical, tangible image. But I do understand the reality of today's marketplace: many DON'T want prints and albums.

So this leaves me with a choice. I can be rigid with an old school pricing model that does not deliver what many want, or I can be flexible in my packages, always making sure to pay myself a fair wage. If the client still does not like that fee schedule, they are free to shop elsewhere as they always have.

As far as additional thoughts? Well - it's all about educating client on just how much work goes into professional work. You need to demonstrate and prove to her how your talent and efforts are well above the P&S or GWC. - Stu

I agree 110% with every word you said. I see more and more brides that DONT want an album and only want a CD of all the images taken. You have to be smart. I wont give them Full size files,,so first thing i tell them is you get a cd with all images and they are sized at 1600x1400 (what ever you choose to do) so you can probably print 5x7s and 8x10's with this disc.

We final proof all images that go into an album and thats why the albums look as nice as they do. But if you dont want the album, then yes i can deduct it from the package price. My $2495.00 just became a $1995.00 shoot and burn. Not to bad for 8 hrs of work. I also kept the full size files for framed prints as an option to us and i give the brides the option of coming back and reordering an album at a later date. They then pay regular prices on the albums and not the discounted prices that are in the packages.

They understand this and it shows your trying to work with them. You attract a lot more Bees with sugar than you do with salt. I think some of you need to practice smarter business tactics. Turn the negatives into positives.

Why would you charge less for a digital file? You put the same PP work in it, the same effort was be hind it when you shot the file.

They will print what and however many they want fro it.

Oh it's just a DVD / CD, it should be cheaper. Do you sell your digital files to a commercial venture for cheap, just because it is a digital file?

You Charge more for one file, on digital media to commercial ventures because they can print so many from it.

You give a client digital media and they are going to print however many they want, when they want, whenever they want and use it anyway they want.

But your going to give it to them for less. Really!!

It's not hard to see who does and does not photograph for a full time income.

And then you wonder why they always want it cheaper.

They want it cheaper because they know they can find some part time, that they can control.

It may sound harsh but, think about it. They have you backpedaling, before the race has started. Now they have a hold and they are going to keep it.

If you do it for less money, are you going to make as much? He¡¡ no!
Is it going to take you less time?
Are your out of pocket expenses going to be any less?
If you figure you can do it for less, you were charging to much to start with.
If you feel your work does not command the price you have already set forth, you are charging to much to start with.

Svetlana wrote in post #11707706
it's perfectly fine that they want a discount, it's a person's nature to bargain...BUT it doesn't mean you have to give a discount. I love Tofurious for his ever helping topics on how to handle discounts, etc...

Basically if you discount after they ask for it, it sends out a message to your potential clients that your product was not worth the high price to begin with.

That is exactly what I was worried about:

So basically I told her I could offer a complimentary print (11x14) as a part of my Spring Special but I didn't think there was much wiggle room elsewhere.

I have held my print prices for the last 2 years and been absorbing supplier increases because I realize the economy has hit most everyone. Plus most photogs in my area do a session fee [$500] with a print credit [$300] or a minimum print purchase or in other words guaranteed sales. They know how much [at least] they are getting from each client. I have considered switching my pricing structure but still haven't made the leap.

I told her to check out CL. That there were plenty of new photogs wanting practice and that I was pretty sure she could find one to do it for free so she wouldn't be out any money. If time wasn't an issue she could try a few of them until she found one that gave her proofs that might work [In other words not so crappy that it wouldn't be too "OMG what have I done" ].

TopHat - are your questions to Mike or myself?

Yes, my out of pocket expenses will be less: the cost of purchasing the album production from my supplier. Yes, it will take me less time to deal with the album aspect of the package, something they have no desire to purchase. If my materials are less for something the customer does not want, I will subtract that.

There's no gun to my head - they have no control over me - if I don't feel I'm being fair to myself in response to their "discount requests" I simply refuse the work. Do I put the same PP into several hundred images on a disk that I put into album of prints or individual prints? Absolutely not. I would be paying myself less than minimum wage. This is all explained up front during the client interview. Are these all properly adjusted RAW files converted to high rez JPG - absolutely. But eyeglasses, blemishes, beer cans, etc. are not touched up.

I do not charge less for digital files. I charge MORE. When I began including a high rez disk in my album contracts all those packages were increased by $400. Sorry, I really don't understand your line of questioning.

jenirose3 wrote in post #11711241
.....I told her to check out CL. That there were plenty of new photogs wanting practice and that I was pretty sure she could find one to do it for free so she wouldn't be out any money. If time wasn't an issue she could try a few of them until she found one that gave her proofs that might work [In other words not so crappy that it wouldn't be too "OMG what have I done" ].

Good suggestion Jeni - I realize that not all CL photographers should be painted by the same brush, but there is a good reason why many charge the way they do.

She will find this out as she compares their products and talent to your work. And maybe this is all she really needs. Then it becomes a win/win situation. She gets to pay what (little) she wants, and you don't feel like you're cheating yourself and sending the wrong message with a cost structure you don't want to promote.

If you have an album in the package and they chose not to have an album, that's a different story.
Back to the op and the almost hy/jacker

The customers are wanting same package for less money.
To offer digital media for less is a backwards movement. As stated above they can print, how, what, when and where they want. To charge less for that is a backwards movement and has become a starting loss for the photog. They lose on print revenue and future print sales.

The rest explains itself. If a photog gives them the same for less, they have controlled the outcome. Simple fact.

If you have a package deal and take something out of that package, then charge less.
-If however you give them the same package for less, it has cost you or you charge to much to start with.

A bit of haggle is human nature, ah- an extra print no big deal.

The rest splains itself

sapearl wrote in post #11711302
Good suggestion Jeni - I realize that not all CL photographers should be painted by the same brush, but there is a good reason why many charge the way they do.

She will find this out as she compares their products and talent to your work. And maybe this is all she really needs. Then it becomes a win/win situation. She gets to pay what (little) she wants, and you don't feel like you're cheating yourself and sending the wrong message with a cost structure you don't want to promote.

That was my thought. Either she really doesn't give two craps about the quality of the portrait she will be giving to her mother for her birthday or she truly can't afford my prices. Either way I can't afford to give away my time. This last fall/holiday season I was overbooked from Sept thru Dec. I had to stop taking clients toward the end of Nov. I have one child. A 6yr old and any time spent away from her is valuable to me. She's getting older and I don't want to miss this time with her so I'm not going to give it away for free.

exactly!

I actually learnt a lesson myself on discounting..yikes, never again. I had a family contact me to shoot their daughter's bat mitzvah. Since this field was new to me I told them I would charge a bit less y the hour and also include a simple album. This family was well aware that I was giving them a deal. On the day of the shoot I had a few other families come to me asking if I can shoot bar/bat mitzvah for thier kids. Everything was looking great, or so I thought.

After the CD is delivered and everyone is raving about the images, I get a call from one of the families to arrange for their son's bar mitzvah and I quote them my regular pricing. The answer I get from them: "But you charged so-and-so this much, why are you charging us more?" And even though they loved the photos, they knew it was a special arrangement with the first family, I still haven't heard from them again because I didn't give them the same discount.

jenirose3 wrote in post #11711486
That was my thought. Either she really doesn't give two craps about the quality of the portrait she will be giving to her mother for her birthday or she truly can't afford my prices. Either way I can't afford to give away my time. This last fall/holiday season I was overbooked from Sept thru Dec. I had to stop taking clients toward the end of Nov. I have one child. A 6yr old and any time spent away from her is valuable to me. She's getting older and I don't want to miss this time with her so I'm not going to give it away for free.

Time lost and not spent with your family is never regained.

In the end, it's people, family and the loved ones closest to you that are the most important parts of one's life. And the best way to control heavy demand on your talent and time is with pricing. If you already have enough to feed and house your family, then a client should pay a good buck to take more time from you- even more reason not to discount.

Tophat and others

Just for clarification purposes. We give a bride a CD with all images taken. They are cropped, color corrected, and basic proof preperation only. Nothing else is done. They are not full size files. We send ours out at 1600x1400 at 265dpi. I also burn a disc at 800x600 for their facebook and computer viewing. Its a lot easier for them to go through the disc and select the images they want for the albums. I spend no more time than i would had i not given them a CD. Images have to have basic prep for presentation because i shoot in raw format.

images that we put in the albums are fully processed and prepared for album printing and design. Also most of my work is done with actions so it really speeds up the process for post processing. And with lightroom, i can go through 800-1000 images in about 5 hours from start to finish and have them ready for proofs. Just a normal work flow that you have to do after every session anyway.

umphotography wrote in post #11712398
Tophat and others

Just for clarification purposes. We give a bride a CD with all images taken. They are cropped, color corrected, and basic proof preperation only. Nothing else is done. They are not full size files. We send ours out at 1600x1400 at 265dpi. I also burn a disc at 800x600 for their facebook and computer viewing. Its a lot easier for them to go through the disc and select the images they want for the albums. I spend no more time than i would had i not given them a CD. Images have to have basic prep for presentation because i shoot in raw format.

images that we put in the albums are fully processed and prepared for album printing and design. Also most of my work is done with actions so it really speeds up the process for post processing. And with lightroom, i can go through 800-1000 images in about 5 hours from start to finish and have them ready for proofs. Just a normal work flow that you have to do after every session anyway.

^ That is awesome! I will get to that in few hundred days .

Thanks everyone in this thread. It's very informative.

I find it better to cut out stuff in your package if the client wants to pay less.

If you give more stuff (like extra prints) and stick to the same price, that may be nice, but then they'll start expecting more stuff, like more photos taken, more pages in the album, more time at the wedding, more free prints, more driving distance, etc.

Give them an inch and they'll take a mile. After all, if they got extra free stuff because they asked, they're going to keep asking and asking until they work you to death.