Flash vs. Ambient for HS Basketball

I know I'll get alot of different opinions, probably leaning towards ambient, which is what I've used mostly over the past several years. Just looking for constructive input from other shooters that have an opinion and/or their methods at similar events. I'm wanting to get the best results for my son's upcoming Jr. High basketball season. (If a sticky exists please post a link because I couldn't find it. )

I would really like to try my AB 800s in a gym sometime, but opted to try my Qflash Trio/Battery pack because I needed well lit action shots for my sports composites. I knew I'd end up with ghosting/shadows in some of them, but given I can only get 1/250 ss sync speeds with the flash and knowing I'd need at least 1/640 or faster to really freeze action (which I prefer for my work), I wanted to see how it'd perform at a game.

Here's a comparison from a recent HS basketball game (sorry for the web compression)

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Where I shoot, flash is not allowed. I can tell you the settings I use, that work pretty well non flash.
85mm f/1.8

ISO 1600
F/2.0
1/400
AI servo
Center point focus
Partial metering
Custom White balance
Continuous shoot/burst

Your pictures, non flash look slightly underexposed, I also noticed you have AF on one shot, should be AI Servo for sports. Custom White balance will also help, auto does not work very well in these gyms, and the other canned settings don't either, get a white piece of paper to use to set your WB....don't need anything fancy.

1/250 with flash will freeze the shot just fine. Sorry, I don't have the technical specifics, but the use of flash is almost like using a much higher shutter speed in it's ability to capture action shots without blur.

Other semi-related issues to take in consideration are

1) the ability to take fewer shots when using flash

2) whether direct flash will be distracting to the players

mark2009 wrote in post #11710532
Where I shoot, flash is not allowed. I can tell you the settings I use, that work pretty well non flash.
85mm f/1.8

ISO 1600
F/2.0
1/400
AI servo
Center point focus
Partial metering
Custom White balance
Continuous shoot/burst

Your pictures, non flash look slightly underexposed, I also noticed you have AF on one shot, should be AI Servo for sports. Custom White balance will also help, auto does not work very well in these gyms, and the other canned settings don't either, get a white piece of paper to use to set your WB....don't need anything fancy.

Thanks!...I have an 85mm 1.8, just never tried it with sports yet...I just figured it was slow to focus like the 85mm L 1.2. I'll give it a try. As for AI Servo, just need to practice with that mode more.

The canon 85mm f/1.8 is a pretty popular, probably the most actually, prime used for amateur sports, with out moving to a fast zoom. It focus is very good also. Here is an example I took a few weeks ago, as a amateur dad..

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SnapLocally.com wrote in post #11710701
1/250 with flash will freeze the shot just fine.

I wasn't having good results in freezing the action at sync speed, at least not until I increased the ISO anyway. I'm going to try the 85mm 1.8 tomorrow without flash this time, CWB, partial metered and try to pan more efficiently.

Once you use your AB's, I don't think you'll ever go back to AMB or OCF. I have a few examples (trying to get the same pose/shot) in AMB and the other with two AB800 (four total, each corner, left and right of me). The AMB were shot at 3200/6400 250/400ss and f3.2/f2.8 while the AB shots were at 400 250ss f3.2. The comparison - better colors, more popping of the pic, all around better. The down, you get one shot every 1.5 seconds, if you shot full power...but this makes your timing better...maybe! If you shoot for a paper, I'm told AMB will do - but if you are planning on selling, then I think (IMHO) that you should use the Bees.

1. The DUNK!!

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Magic 24,

Very nice shots!!!

DD974 wrote in post #11710911
I wasn't having good results in freezing the action at sync speed, at least not until I increased the ISO anyway. I'm going to try the 85mm 1.8 tomorrow without flash this time, CWB, partial metered and try to pan more efficiently.

AI servo also...post some shots, send me a PM when you do so I can take a look...

Good Luck

Magic 24 wrote in post #11710917
Once you use your AB's, I don't think you'll ever go back to AMB or OCF. You can see the lights on the railing in the background. If you don't have a railing, tripods or clamp to the side of the seating areas will work. Your settings may be different, but I shoot just about the same in three different gyms and all different colors/ceilings.

I've been hesitating to ask to use strobes for fear of getting shot down..or if the AD/Refs allowed, what reaction would come from the crowd...but really, all they can say is no.

It would not hurt talking to the AD, adding that you can donate some to the School. I've seen your web site and maybe you do this already and are in good standing with the School/AD. If you ask the Refs...most, including the players/parents, don't even know they are going off. Or you can go and set up and see what happens! Andy

When you look at the photos side by side you can see that the one with the flash is about one stop over exposed. That is because the flash is firing with the same relative settings that the ambient shot is. In the ambient the exposure is (f1.2 & ISO 800 1/640) and the exposure in the flashed (f4 & ISO 3200 1/250) is the same. You then used the flash and therefore the overexposure (look at the whites). If you are having trouble freezing the action when using the flash then your settings are to close to ambient. You are not seeing motion blur from the flash but ghosting because the ambient light is getting into the exposure. Overpower the ambient with your flash and the flash duration will be the effective shutter speed.

f1.2 f4 -3 1/3
ISO 800 ISO 1600 +2
1/640 1/250 +1 1/3

If you want to stop ghosting and control the white balance when using the flash then you need the exposure settings to be different than the ambient settings.

You can experiment with the settings but I would recommend starting at 2 stops below ambient when using the flash. If the flash is powerful enough then go more than 2 stops below. That way the flash duration is effectively the shutter speed and the motion is stopped. One way to wrap your head around this is to envision shooting in a completely dark room at a shutter speed of thirty seconds and use the flash. The flash duration will then be what stops the motion. In the above examples all you would have to do is lower the ISO from 3200 to 800. You would then get the 2 stops below ambient.

If you do not care for the 'cave' look then you will need to light up the rest of the gym and not just the players. The 'cave' effect will happen when using a flash and firing directly at the player.

Thanks John!....

John Godwin wrote in post #11711120
Overpower the ambient with your flash and the flash duration will be the effective shutter speed.

Which is the flash's sync speed, correct?

John Goodwin is correct, your flash is too close to the ambient. Lower your ISO, you want the pop from the flash to stop the action not the shutter speed. The darker the gym the easier it is to get separation from ambient.

This was at ISO 200, f 3.5 and 1/250 with my strobes.

Sledhed wrote in post #11711543
John Goodwin is correct, your flash is too close to the ambient. Lower your ISO, you want the pop from the flash to stop the action not the shutter speed. The darker the gym the easier it is to get separation from ambient.

This was at ISO 200, f 3.5 and 1/250 with my strobes.

Very nice! This is what I'm after!...I want to be able to use strobes by the time my son is playing JV/Varsity...what better place to test it than in an 8th grade game. I'll just have to ask is all!...Thanks again.