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FORUMS Nikon Cameras, Lenses & Accessories Nikon Cameras 
Thread started 05 Feb 2010 (Friday) 20:14
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Got a Nikon? Share your thoughts and photos here or ask a question! (II)

 
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dgrPhotos
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Jun 06, 2012 08:12 |  #6841

David Arbogast wrote in post #14538819 (external link)
That's right. And it is an issue no doubt. It poses a trade-off situation: do I give up a little overall sharpness to gain the wide dof, or do I max out the performance of my gear, but give up holding a whole frame in acceptable focus? It's a creative decision that people who know what they're doing make. And sometimes the decision is made to permit diffraction because other goals are more important. It's a serious concern and I like to shoot landscapes about f/11 mostly. That there is a perfomance hit at f/22 is undeniable, but the notion that no one who knows what they're doing would never use f/22 is deniable and very objectionable.

I agree. It's not denying it's existence it's understanding how to work with it. Bryan Peterson is another pro that is constantly at higher apertures, even in his videos.




  
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Jun 06, 2012 08:17 |  #6842

Ryan1524 wrote in post #14538821 (external link)
Enter the D700 with grip. :p

I am very leery of the D600. I bought the D700 out of time constraints, not want. My original upgrade plan was the D800. I'm hoping I can dump it in time before the D600 kills its value. On the other hand, 8fps is pretty nice to have.

I should have said "Nikon needs a new body that can push 10FPS and not cost as much as the D4." ;) Maybe the D600 will be the same as the D700 where adding a grip will increase the FPS. Then ditch the plans for the D400. :lol:




  
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Guari
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Jun 06, 2012 08:18 |  #6843

K6AZ wrote in post #14538812 (external link)
I'm not hunting around websites. Exactly where does he promote shooting at f/16 or beyond?

That is as much as I will do. I will not spend hours looking for a quote when I have seen his work and his dvd's to know what he does, in terms of settings for his landscapes..

Diffraction? yes. Sharpness goes a bit down? yes. It happens in every camera format. When you make landscapes you need to make a compromise of DOF and sharpness.

I would rather have DOF over razor sharpness on many of my pics. It's my creative decision and it is too egotistic to think that because you do not use apertures tighter than 16 then no one does (As you said a non issue). I do use small apertures.

It is an issue


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Jun 06, 2012 08:31 |  #6844

Guari wrote in post #14538863 (external link)
That is as much as I will do. I will not spend hours looking for a quote when I have seen his work and his dvd's to know what he does, in terms of settings for his landscapes..

Diffraction? yes. Sharpness goes a bit down? yes. It happens in every camera format. When you make landscapes you need to make a compromise of DOF and sharpness.

I would rather have DOF over razor sharpness on many of my pics. It's my creative decision and it is too egotistic to think that because you do not use apertures tighter than 16 then no one does (As you said a non issue). I do use small apertures.

It is an issue

It's never been an issue for me and like most I thought the magic bullet for sharpness was to stop way down until resolution got to the point where you could see the difference. These days I rarely stop down past f/7.1 even for UWA shots and have no trouble with DOF.

This issue has been beaten to death over the years and I obviously believe in those who see diminishing returns past f/8-11 depending on the lens. A simple Google search of diffraction will turn up the pros and cons along with hundreds of sample images. I'll take the relatively thinner DOF for the lack of diffraction softness.


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Jun 06, 2012 08:37 |  #6845

K6AZ wrote in post #14538919 (external link)
It's never been an issue for me and like most I thought the magic bullet for sharpness was to stop way down until resolution got to the point where you could see the difference. These days I rarely stop down past f/7.1 even for UWA shots and have no trouble with DOF.

This issue has been beaten to death over the years and I obviously believe in those who see diminishing returns past f/8-11 depending on the lens. A simple Google search of diffraction will turn up the pros and cons along with hundreds of sample images. I'll take the relatively thinner DOF for the lack of diffraction softness.

Cool

it's been beaten to death, I know. I have compared shots made by me using different apertures and I still decide to use higher than the sharpest aperture of a lens for artistic purposes, though I'm well aware they are not the sharpest..

Sometimes they are over f16.

That's pretty much it,

Nikon please don't limit my lenses to 16... Though I doubt they'll listen to me LOL


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Jun 06, 2012 09:15 |  #6846

The other thing is that as far as I know the f/16 lenses are the f/1.8 primes. Even if you like to stop down I wouldn't think these would be the ones for it which may be why Nikon cut a few cents on the cost.


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Jun 06, 2012 11:40 |  #6847

dgrPhotos wrote in post #14538715 (external link)
Thom Hogan said diffraction is an issue on the D800 with anything higher than f8.

Heh-heh-heh...Meh. But diffraction is real and does have an effect (of course).

On d800: F/8-F/13 differences are unlikely to be noticed by anyone in the real world. MAYBE if you pixel peep at 100% you might notice a tiny difference, MAYBE. Any differences in sharpness are overwhelmed by the DOF difference if you want more DOF. Diffraction is a total non-issue up to and including F/13. Even in a 24x36" print you would not notice a sharpness difference between an F/8 shot and an F/13 shot, I guarantee it. Don't link to the Nikon example that was shot indoors, because the lighting is totally different. =p

At F/16 you will notice a bit of a drop in sharpness at 100%. You would most likely notice a difference in a large (say 20x30") print. You would never notice a difference at web size (not even remotely). If you want or need the DOF from it, don't hesitate to use it.

At F/22 you will notice a large drop in sharpness at 100%. It's clearly noticeable and would be visible in a 16x24" print, imho. At web size, even at full HD rez, there would be no noticeable softness from it, though. Still, avoid unless you really need the DOF from it.

The reason it isn't as bad as some of the math makes it out to be is there is more to the story than the simple circle of confusion > individual pixel size simple math that sites sometimes use. They are missing a pretty large piece of the puzzle for common camera sensors. =p


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Jun 06, 2012 14:31 |  #6848

woos wrote in post #14539914 (external link)
Heh-heh-heh...Meh. But diffraction is real and does have an effect (of course).

On d800: F/8-F/13 differences are unlikely to be noticed by anyone in the real world. MAYBE if you pixel peep at 100% you might notice a tiny difference, MAYBE. Any differences in sharpness are overwhelmed by the DOF difference if you want more DOF. Diffraction is a total non-issue up to and including F/13. Even in a 24x36" print you would not notice a sharpness difference between an F/8 shot and an F/13 shot, I guarantee it. Don't link to the Nikon example that was shot indoors, because the lighting is totally different. =p

At F/16 you will notice a bit of a drop in sharpness at 100%. You would most likely notice a difference in a large (say 20x30") print. You would never notice a difference at web size (not even remotely). If you want or need the DOF from it, don't hesitate to use it.

At F/22 you will notice a large drop in sharpness at 100%. It's clearly noticeable and would be visible in a 16x24" print, imho. At web size, even at full HD rez, there would be no noticeable softness from it, though. Still, avoid unless you really need the DOF from it.

The reason it isn't as bad as some of the math makes it out to be is there is more to the story than the simple circle of confusion > individual pixel size simple math that sites sometimes use. They are missing a pretty large piece of the puzzle for common camera sensors. =p

Are you speaking of any lens in particular? Diffraction and the extent of it is highly dependent on the lens being used. Also don't forget the reason some people are using the D800 is for its cropping capability, diffraction softness can be a big issue in such cases.


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Jun 06, 2012 16:19 |  #6849

Is this what everyone wants?
http://nikonrumors.com …24-85mm-f3-5-4-5-vr.aspx/ (external link)

Mid-range zoom with VR? Too bad no 2.8.




  
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Jun 06, 2012 16:54 |  #6850

It's gonna be kit lens with D600

I want a 24-85 f2.8!


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Jun 06, 2012 17:12 |  #6851

^ The 24-70/2.8 isn't good enough?


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Jun 06, 2012 17:25 |  #6852

Ryan1524 wrote in post #14541557 (external link)
^ The 24-70/2.8 isn't good enough?

I don't want to change lens!
24-85 will cover all the primes that I want to get :lol:
Even better If they make it f2.0 ! I will pay $3k+ for that lens


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Jun 06, 2012 18:01 |  #6853

K6AZ wrote in post #14540862 (external link)
Diffraction and the extent of it is highly dependent on the lens being used.

[citation needed]

(Actually there is some truth to that but it doesn't really apply much at all in normal shooting situations, unless that person's normal shooting situation involves macro shots with a bunch of vastly different lens designs.)

One shouldn't worry too much about F8-F13-ish effecting real life image quality much. I believe on the D800 when it, theoretically, begins to take effect is somewhere around f7.3 or so--I could be wrong, though. In reality you'd never notice a difference between F7.1 and F8, though, even on a single color test chart. It's more of a slow curve with F16 really being where it becomes noticeable at 100%, and F22 being "yuck, I wouldn't use that unless I needed a lot of DOF in one shot".

But if one wants to try for absolute technical perfection and not go above f7.1 or f8 (or whatever the choice is), that's definitely a valid way to shoot, and there's nothing wrong with it. There's always focus stacking and such to get around diffraction, too. I usually keep it within the f8-f11 range, myself. And the d800 is a great camera to produce technically great as well as compositionally (i think i just made that word up) great shots, wooohoo. ^_^

And 'bout that lens, it looks awesome, potentially. Nice range! I'm excited about it.


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Jun 06, 2012 19:03 |  #6854

woos wrote in post #14541754 (external link)
[citation needed]

(Actually there is some truth to that but it doesn't really apply much at all in normal shooting situations, unless that person's normal shooting situation involves macro shots with a bunch of vastly different lens designs.)

One shouldn't worry too much about F8-F13-ish effecting real life image quality much. I believe on the D800 when it, theoretically, begins to take effect is somewhere around f7.3 or so--I could be wrong, though. In reality you'd never notice a difference between F7.1 and F8, though, even on a single color test chart. It's more of a slow curve with F16 really being where it becomes noticeable at 100%, and F22 being "yuck, I wouldn't use that unless I needed a lot of DOF in one shot".

But if one wants to try for absolute technical perfection and not go above f7.1 or f8 (or whatever the choice is), that's definitely a valid way to shoot, and there's nothing wrong with it. There's always focus stacking and such to get around diffraction, too. I usually keep it within the f8-f11 range, myself. And the d800 is a great camera to produce technically great as well as compositionally (i think i just made that word up) great shots, wooohoo. ^_^

And 'bout that lens, it looks awesome, potentially. Nice range! I'm excited about it.

I hate to point out the obvious but anything seen by the sensor goes through the lens. This subject has been written about ad naseum by several well known professionals and I am not going to rehash it here. A simple Google search will turn up several in the first page of results. If you want to see diffraction in real life find a good 100/105mm macro lens and shoot some macro.


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Jun 06, 2012 21:25 |  #6855

It seems I've opened a can of worms, so let's switch topics.

I've been working on a color preset to do my street photography as I'm thinking of completely switching over to color exclusively. I guess I've been looking at too many photos from the masters that are all in black and white so I followed suit. But I've been working on some color that looks a bit warm and muddy which I'm liking. Tell me what you think:

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D800 | Sigma 35mm 1.4 Art | Nikkor 85mm 1.8G | Nikkor 70-200 2.8G
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