Just calibrated my monitor. Now I have colorspace issues.

I've purchased an X-Rite i1 Display 2 and calibrated my displays (Dell IPS panel and HP LP2474w wide gamut IPS).

Everything now looks great. Except in color managed applications like Lightroom and Photoshop. Everything is washed out!

Now I know this can be a common issue. Especially with RAW. But I am seeing it on some old Powershot S2 JPG's too. If I look at some JPG's in XNView without any color ICC profiles being used things looks correct. As soon as I apply the monitor profile they look washed out.

Here is my calibration result on the HP display.

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Dick Emery wrote in post #11739284
I've purchased an X-Rite i1 Display 2 and calibrated my displays (Dell IPS panel and HP LP2474w wide gamut IPS).

Everything now looks great. Except in color managed applications like Lightroom and Photoshop. Everything is washed out!

On a wide gamut screen, any non colormanaged application will show sRGB images overly saturated.
That might explain why to your eyes LR shows images "dull".

LR and Photoshop should display the images identical and correct. Whatever working space you use.

Dick Emery wrote in post #11739284
Now I know this can be a common issue. Especially with RAW.

Whatever gave you that idea?

Dick Emery wrote in post #11739284
But I am seeing it on some old Powershot S2 JPG's too. If I look at some JPG's in XNView without any color ICC profiles being used things looks correct.

Define "correct"? You mean "more saturated then in PS"? It might well be that the over saturated look (you expect and like) is not correct.

Dick Emery wrote in post #11739284
As soon as I apply the monitor profile they look washed out.

What do you mean "apply the monitor profile"? You don't "apply" the monitor profile anywhere in PS or LR.

Dick Emery wrote in post #11739284
Here is my calibration result on the HP display.

Looks okay.

Dick Emery wrote in post #11739284
To give you an idea of what I am facing here are several different sources including two prints I scanned. Granted the scans are not accurate to what the actual prints are but it gives you a general idea. They are close but not as close as I would like.

None of the images have an embedded profile...

Dick Emery wrote in post #11739284
what was showing on my display.

In what application?

Dick Emery wrote in post #11739284
not enough to match sRGB output.

sRGB images viewed in what application?
LR and PS should show the images identical (apart from out of sRGB gamut colors)
Non colormanaged applications will show the images oversaturated.

Dick Emery wrote in post #11739284
Now my thought process goes like this. What I like to see if what I like to get. That is I want my RAW processing, JPG's and prints to look as close as possible on my now calibrated displays.

They should, if you use colormanaged applications.

Dick Emery wrote in post #11739284
But Lightroom and Photoshop are the weak points. I know ProPhoto allows you see see EXACTLY what is in the RAWs and you see more detail and gradations etc. But really I would just like to process them in the sRGB colorspace to simplify things. I will then know what I am going to get on export to JPG.

See above.

Dick Emery wrote in post #11739284
If not then some way to preview them as sRGB would be handy.

You mean in a non colormanaged application?
In PS: View > proof > WindowsRGB or Monitor RGB. But what you see there will only be relevant for your display. It won't be what the rest of the world is seeing.

Dick Emery wrote in post #11739284
I may as well set my displays to sRGB ICC profile otherwise.

No. Then you won't see anything even remotely accurate.

What I am saying is I prefer what I see when the images are non-color managed. 99% of people view JPG's non-color managed and untagged. Most browsers tend to have color management turned off by default. I know you can turn it on if you like (Firefox allows it to be turned on just for tagged images). I do not need nor want color management on JPG's. If Snapfish used the embedded profile from the output JPG why did that come out so dark and to the orange side of the spectrum? Surely their color accuracy is correct at the lab? But if I use the calibrated ICC profile in say XNView to view that JPG it is very washed out and looks similar to what I see in Lightroom. You may say that is correct but MOST people won't see that on their non-color managed browsers/non-calibrated displays anyhow.

Frankly I am a little confused. I've taken my JPG's and viewed them on non-calibrated displays and although they may not look the same they at least are not washed out. I just want my workflow to reflect that same output as I cannot tell what I am going to get right now. I am finding working outside the ICC colorspace is more what I can expect when I finally output to JPG than if working within it. Thus the reason I want to turn it off in Lightroom.

At least Photoshop has soft proofing but that's no good if I have to edit an image in Photoshop for EVERY shot I am processing/filtering. It would take ages.

Dick--- A related question... Which monitor is being used for actual photo editing and proofing? The HP is a wide gamut display, but you haven't mentioned the model of the Dell monitor. I'm assuming it's not a wide gamut display.

And a suggestion: When wrestling with color management issues, it's best to reduce the number of variables by using a known, standard test image, not your own photos.

Yes I have a test image. It also looks washed out when color managed. Perhaps it's just I am used to seeing things on wide gamut. But then I took the color managed images over to the Dell IPS (Dell 2007WFP) which is not wide gamut and it STILL looks washed out when managed. 'Life' does not look washed out.

But here is the kicker. I went through some other images in Lightroom and the ones that had camera standard applied did not look too bad. I am guessing really I just need to make sure that everything imported gets the camera standard profile applied and check my output when exporting to JPG. I had thought about just pumping the saturation as I want and exporting in ProPhoto colorspace. At least the output should be the same as I am seeing in Lightroom.

Of course soft proofing would be best. I tried the trial soft proofing plugin for Lightroom but could not see an option for 'monitor'. basically I want to soft proof for 'NO' color management just to see what it would look like without any. I only seem to get that option in Photoshop.

Maybe I just need to get used to it. I guess this is what you could term 'color shock' after calibration. I can see why some people get paid a wage for doing this kinda stuff in the media (Publishing and ISFCC trained engineers in AV).

BTW I turned on color management in Firefox and the second image now looks just like the image in Lightroom (Adobe standard profile that is). But as I said. Most people do not view color managed.

Dick Emery wrote in post #11743572
But here is the kicker. I went through some other images in Lightroom and the ones that had camera standard applied did not look too bad. I am guessing really I just need to make sure that everything imported gets the camera standard profile applied and check my output when exporting to JPG.

Camera Standard is not a profile. It's merely a LR or ACR raw preset to emulate the Canon Camera Standard picture style of your Canon camera.

ChasP505 wrote in post #11743663
Camera Standard is not a profile. It's merely a LR or ACR raw preset to emulate the Canon Camera Standard picture style of your Canon camera.

Yes I know. I guess using the word profile is confusing there since we are talking color profiles. Heh. Sorry about that. But it does help pump the saturation and contrast somewhat to my preference.

Color is a funny old thing. I've been browsing some Flickr shots with color management enabled in Firefox and it's not as bad as I thought. I am now seeing things in their correct colorspace for the first time I guess. I probably just got used to seeing everything oversaturated. But now I will have to be aware of it. Especially when it comes to printing as it gets converted to RGB.

Dick Emery wrote in post #11743701
I am now seeing things in their correct colorspace for the first time I guess. I probably just got used to seeing everything oversaturated.

That would be my first guess...
Then again, on your non-wide gamut screen, sRGB images should not look (much) different in a colormanaged vs. a non-colormanaged application, at least saturation wise.

Dick Emery wrote in post #11743701
Especially when it comes to printing as it gets converted to RGB.

Just to be clear: An image that is (say) in ProPhotoRGB and gets converted to sRGB should not change appearance (apart from possible clipping)
Any in-sRGB-gamut colors will remain unchanged.

I'm beginning to think this is a wide gamut issue. Why? Well I have calibrated both the standard Dell display and the HP wide gamut display. Now if I open Lightroom on the Dell it displays my photos 100% as I intended. In fact if I open the exported JPG with no ICC profile in XNView it shows identical on the Dell as in Lightroom on the Dell and almost identical when displayed on the HP (with Lightroom still on the Dell).

If I open the JPG using XNView with the HP ICC profile it again looks washed out. If I open it using the Dell profile on the HP display which is incorrect it may be the wrong hue but the saturation is the same as when displayed on the Dell in Lightroom or when color management is left off on the HP.

If I open the JPG in XNView with the Dell ICC profile on the Dell again it displays the same as in Lightrooom when on the Dell.

But as soon as I open Lightroom on the HP it looks washed out again.

One more thing I did was to apply the Dell ICC profile to the HP just to see how it would look. There was actually only a minor color change on the display itself. BUT Lightroom displays my photos vibrantly as I am used to seeing.

Can someone explain this because it's got be somewhat baffled.

Is XNView color managed ? When you save the JPG, what profile is embedded, if any ?

Dick Emery wrote in post #11747644
I'm beginning to think this is a wide gamut issue.

Part of it is:
If you view an sRGB image in a non-colormanaged application on a wide gamut screen, it will look like crap (way oversaturated)

Let's keep the non colormanaged applications and random profile assigning out of the equation and first get LR / DPP / PS / whatever colormanaged application to diplay the images the same.

LR should display the image about identical on both your monitors if you use dual screen mode and the proper profile for each monitor.
Photoshop should display the images identical to LR.

Does it?

So René, object lesson would be: only use a wide gamut display with color-managed viewers, whereas in a "normal" gamut display you have more leeway and so can "see things as others will see them"?

Not Rene but that is correct. When I switched to a wide gamut display I had to stop using IE and switched to Firefox. Still had to change a setting so FF would assume images with no embedded profile defaulted to sRGB.

Dick, the simple solution is use only the HP display for color managed photo editing and viewing. Relegate the Dell to menus, palettes, and documents.

René Damkot wrote in post #11747895
Part of it is:
If you view an sRGB image in a non-colormanaged application on a wide gamut screen, it will look like crap (way oversaturated)

Let's keep the non colormanaged applications and random profile assigning out of the equation and first get LR / DPP / PS / whatever colormanaged application to diplay the images the same.

LR should display the image about identical on both your monitors if you use dual screen mode and the proper profile for each monitor.
Photoshop should display the images identical to LR.

Does it?

No. It's washed out on the HP wide gamut and looks correct on the Dell.

If I open up the sRGB JPG file in Photoshop it looks correct and pretty much exactly the same on both monitors. I know this because I have to switch colour profiles for each monitor in PS's color settings option under the Edit menu. If I select soft proofing and select monitor RGB it does not change. If I select Internet sRGB however it looks washed out again.


I was under the assumption that Photoshop is applying color management and using the display profiles when opening JPG files right?

If I edit a photo in Photoshop by right clicking in Lightroom it asks me if I want to color manage the photo. If I select no then it looks vibrant. If I choose one of the other options about using embedded or color managed it looks washed out.

Damned confusing. I don't know what is correct anymore lol.

I think it's probably correct. It's probably just not applying the profile to the JPG since if I open the RAW in Photoshop it does the same thing and asks if I want to use the embedded profile. It also pulls in the .xmp preset settings with it.

I am guessing that it is something to do with the wide gamut calibration whereby the profile when used in color managed applications aggressively compensates for the wide gamut. I read that NEC's wide gamut display aimed at pro's has a specially tweaked version of the i1. Whether that is in the software or in the puck itself I do not know. To my eyes things look fine after calibration on the display itself (if somewhat more saturated than the Dell). It's just when color management kicks in using the calibrated profile it's like it sucks too much colour out of things. I may have to rely on the Dell instead as I am beginning to thing that is more accurate oddly enough. Images on the Dell are ricker even though the monitor is not as saturated as the wide gamut HP.

Now I am rambling...

BTW I have 3 displays hooked up to compare with. The third display is an HDTV which is also calibrated on the PC outout (single ISFCC profiled HDMI on the plasma HDTV). Dragging Lightroom between the Dell and the HDTV shows no change to any photos colour/hue/levels etc other than the displays themselves having a slight variation. Dragging to the HP and Lightroom changes the photos from a warm orangey hue to a more yellow hue. You actually see Lightroom make the change as if I drag only half way across it's got that same orangey hue on the HP until it's fully dragged across and becomes aware of what display it is now on. The other panels are sRGB of course whilsth the HP being wide gamut is in the Adobe RGB gamut.